When it comes to navigating the complex world of Orthotics and Prosthetics (O&P), our latest episode offers an enlightening and deeply personal perspective. Join our guest, Seth O'Brien, Vice President of Wheeler Orthotics and Prosthetics, as he takes us through his transformative journey from dealing with cancer and amputation to becoming an impassioned advocate and practitioner in the O&P industry. Seth's story is not just a testament to resilience, but also a call to challenge norms and push boundaries in the pursuit of optimal patient outcomes.
Wrapping up, we discuss critical aspects of patient care in the O&P industry. Seth steers the conversation beyond the limiting mindset of "you just have to get used to it" to focus on creating optimal outcomes for patients. We touch on the principles of socket stabilization, suspension, and interface, and emphasize the role of empathy in improving patient experiences. We also spotlight the invaluable work of the American Academy of Orthotists and Prosthetists in advancing the industry and patient care. So, tune in for a healthy dose of inspiration, personal storytelling, and key industry insights.
When it comes to navigating the complex world of Orthotics and Prosthetics (O&P), our latest episode offers an enlightening and deeply personal perspective. Join our guest, Seth O'Brien, Vice President of Wheeler Orthotics and Prosthetics, as he takes us through his transformative journey from dealing with cancer and amputation to becoming an impassioned advocate and practitioner in the O&P industry. Seth's story is not just a testament to resilience, but also a call to challenge norms and push boundaries in the pursuit of optimal patient outcomes.
Wrapping up, we discuss critical aspects of patient care in the O&P industry. Seth steers the conversation beyond the limiting mindset of "you just have to get used to it" to focus on creating optimal outcomes for patients. We touch on the principles of socket stabilization, suspension, and interface, and emphasize the role of empathy in improving patient experiences. We also spotlight the invaluable work of the American Academy of Orthotists and Prosthetists in advancing the industry and patient care. So, tune in for a healthy dose of inspiration, personal storytelling, and key industry insights.
Welcome to season six of the prosthetics and orthotics podcast. We are absolutely thrilled to have you on board. We're talking to experts who know their stuff, the patients who've experienced these technologies firsthand, the vendors who provided the tools and the thought leaders shaping the future. Together, we will uncover the ways to make the lives of those relying on these incredible technologies even better. We hope these discussions are going to be the highlight of your day.
Speaker 2:Hi everyone, my name's Joris Peels and this is another episode of the prosthetics and orthotics podcast with Brett Wright. How you doing, Brett.
Speaker 1:Hey, joris doing well, man Just hanging tight. I'm actually really excited about this episode and, you know, learning a little bit more. But before we get into all that, I just was very impressed with some of this TPU stuff that's coming out, not only in SLS but with Multi-Jet Fusion, and I think there's a massive opportunity and market for the O&P industry to really look into this idea of flexible compliant prostheses and orthoses. So I don't know if you've seen any of that stuff, but kind of wanting to get your attention.
Speaker 2:No, I've been working on stuff like that for a while, like in souls and trying to make encapsulate air and then make souls that bend in a certain way and make kind of like contact points that bend and deform in a certain way and that are more comfortable than we can have and the TPU also probably probing to a certain degree. Right, is it really sticky? It could be a bit warm maybe on the skin sometimes, but it's soft and it's wearable on the skin and it's a real skin friendly, person friendly material. And I think, especially on material extrusion, it's really accessible and I can imagine an O&P kind of thing. Somebody would come in and say, hey, this is just sticking a little bit, it's not really comfortable.
Speaker 2:You can make them a really small part that could make them a little more comfortable. You know Small little kind of cushion, right, and I can imagine as well many people are using material extrusion for air cushioning, encapsulated like TPU kind of cushions that can be variable as well. And yeah, with regards to like the kind of stuff that with powder bed fusion and MGMF, you know where it's a little bit more abrasive, you're going to have to, probably, if you want to put on the skin. You're probably going to want to, you know, put it through a dimension machine or something like that, but then it's a really skin friendly thing. You're going to be able to work with lattices and stuff like that, and I think this is something that can really, you know, I like it from the pain perspective, from making like these things more comfortable. There's lots of other examples where you could make the fit better maybe, but just making the comfort higher, especially on things like a leg or something like that, I think this is a really could be a potentially breakthrough material.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think it's interesting that you go straight to FDM. I said SLS and TPU and I think that's where, like, and I would love for you to just say, hey, this really the opportunity for cost effective comfort comes from the FDM side, right.
Speaker 2:So so in the opera was improvisational stuff. Fdm is, of course, much faster, the feedback group is faster. So if you're going to be working with a patient for adding their individual comfort, thinking like FDM would be just be close, closer, right, or material extrusion. Now, on the other hand, what's specifically is interesting about FDM is you can encapsulate air so you can print putting air inside and you could make like an air cushion that can be bigger for you and smaller for me, or just a different shape, and that's something you can't do with powder diffusion. So that's the other comfort level. Now, if you're going to be wanting making whole devices and all that kind of stuff, you're going to be doing this over and over again. Yeah, then of course, material extrusion stuff. That comes into play and then the economics of that, especially MGF. I think in this context, especially with polypropylene, can be really really very, very advantageous kind of solution. But I think for most people FDM is going to be at least the thing that gets started with, just because it's more accessible.
Speaker 1:Right Now and I know you have some strong feelings towards lattice structures in general with powder bed fusion I almost said powder based fusion I'm trying to break that habit. Powder bed fusion printers One of your thoughts is this maturing or just not the right direction?
Speaker 2:to go. No, I think the problem is that lattices were turned to by everyone as like a one fits all solution for every problem, and they aren't. It's very difficult to behave, to predict behavior under stress, under really complex stresses. It's kind of like I always referred to as kind of like throwing wet spaghetti against the wall. You don't exactly know how what is going to deform where. Now, if you could go into a part where that stress is engineered, like the example of an NFL helmet, then the lattice structure makes it cooler, it makes airflow better and then you can engineer for the types of impact that person is likely to experience, whether some heavy dude flowing on top of them or them getting a sharp impact or kick to the head of a cleat or something like that. So there it's really advantageous.
Speaker 2:But for most things it's just everybody was like, oh my God, let's do lattices and they're just like that, no idea what they were doing, and modeling these impacts and things is just really complicated. So it's more that I'm giving a bit of a reaction. Everybody thought like lattices, like the be all, end, all the universe. I'm just like, whoa, oh, wait, a minute, guys, it's a little bit more complicated, so I'm just a bit more kind of like cautious, I think, with lattices and I think that if you can, especially if you've got these multiple impacts or dealing with anything, it's really exciting. But I'm just saying that not a lot of people know how these things perform, so it's more like I'm trying to be careful, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, 100%. And how cool is it that some of the football helmets are FDM and those are the ones that performed well? I don't know that that study is out, but I do know that it was definitely in the top two, top three that the FDM TPU pads performed as well or better than powder bed fusion stuff. So I think that's pretty neat.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and generally I think in protective equipment, any kind of helmets, bike stuff, all the seats, backpacks, anything that surrounds human being, is really going to be a really prime area for additive and I think I'm really excited by any of those applications.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, man, we went down a little bit of a rabbit hole there, but that was a fun one. Yeah, totally so. Today we have on the podcast Seth O'Brien, and Seth is also a fellow podcaster and he does some stuff for the Academy. He also is the vice president of Wheeler orthotics and prosthetics and I can't wait to hear his story. I actually just ran into him at the AOPA conference and so I'm really excited just to hear his story and how he got going. So, Seth, welcome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, thank you guys. It's great to connect with you on this side of the mic right.
Speaker 1:That's right so go ahead, Yorst.
Speaker 2:No, I was about to say you were about to say you can say I always do the first question. You can do the first question now, Thank you.
Speaker 1:You do the first question.
Speaker 2:You are, I don't know, okay, okay, all right, I'll start. Um so how'd you get involved with?
Speaker 3:Well, so I came into it from the from the patient's side.
Speaker 3:I lost a leg to cancer when I was 24, had just a tumor in the arch of my foot. That kind of went unrealized and misdiagnosed, probably for Somewhere around a year maybe. Played a lot of sports, grown up and and couldn't sprint and then couldn't jog and I was on crutches for a long time and Eventually they realized it wasn't a tear in the tendons and I had a tumor in the arch of my foot and so basically had to have a Transstitial amputation to to try and be that and luckily everything worked out. But just had a really rough time kind of getting getting fit and getting a prosthesis to to work for me and go back to doing the sports and the things that I wanted to do. And at 24 years old it was a big part of my life and and Kind of a frustration point that I decided to switch careers and learn to go back to do it for myself, kind of a kind of a selfish Motivation at first, but it ended up being just a blessing in disguise and an amazing journey.
Speaker 2:Okay and deep. What is it like getting cancer at 24? Do you feel like in a cursed, because it's not something you expect, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I in a way, Absolutely All right. It's, it's kind of the weird, the curse, and then, you know, maybe the luck of the Irish at the same time. It's it's a curse that you have it. But then it's all of these amazing things and, and just you know, being able to beat it. It was kind of a 50% you know survival rate at the point that I was at, and so I don't know how it's possible, but somehow you come out of it feeling Cursed and lucky all at the same time, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I'm imagine and it so if you're but, and in the facing mentality of that age, does that, does that make you more serious?
Speaker 3:I think absolutely.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I'm not a serious person, I'm, I'm a I'm always trying to keep it in check around, you know, in the professional realm but I Think that it certainly shifts your perspectives and and you know my priorities and and there's a lot of growing up that happened in In a year span, at 24 years old, but just a great, you know, I guess, looking back, it's like it.
Speaker 3:It happened after college, which I think was was perfect timing, but it certainly just put a lot of things in perspective, I guess right, and so a focus on Family and a focus on, you know, this new world of Prosthetics that I became so passionate about, and and all of those things that were just, you know, absolute Coincidence and and happenstance. But I grew up, you know, I fell into radio. I was, I was a radio personality before Switching careers and going into the field of OMP, and so it was a fun run, you know, I accidentally kind of fell into this broadcasting career and was on the air in Tucson, arizona, for eight years and I had a blast. But I'm so glad that I'm in this, this new phase of my life.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's a very, very different things, I think. And and did you feel like different as a person by being like an MPT? Did you feel that was like a label, or does it label you? You gave yourself, or do you feel somehow not whole, or was it just like more like no, no, I almost died. Wow, okay, thank goodness I'm still here, you know.
Speaker 3:I think, more of the more of the being grateful that I'm still here. You know, I think it was such an accomplishment, sort of to be cancer to a certain extent and definitely have, you know, a gnarly battle scar to show for it, but it kind of became a I don't know if, I don't know if labeling me or or kind of, you know, Becoming my identity sounds correct, but in a way it did and I think in a positive way it's. There's so much focus and effort on trying to overcome these obstacles that I mean, to a certain extent, that just Becomes your identity a little bit right, but I think in a positive way, not not in the sense that, like now, I feel like I am, you know, a quote-unquote amputee in that sort of negative connotation. But yeah, absolutely I'm a. I'm an amputee that that is constantly just trying to Not change my life because of that, and I think there's a lot of sort of persevering and overcoming and challenges that are that are tackled head-on because of it, which I think is pretty cool.
Speaker 2:Oh, definitely. I think. One other thing is like, like we often don't know. I mean that I could imagine that for your parents and also people around you at 24, like other other people, how was it wasn't like for the people around you for dealing with this, because we always would kind of focus on the patient Was, of course, the most important, but it must have really difficult for everybody around you, right?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think my parents probably had it, had it worse, and and and now, as a father myself, you know I could see that completely.
Speaker 3:But I always felt like I was trying to take care of them more than More than they were, you know, and necessarily needing to take care of me when I was going through chemo and and all of that you know treatment process. But that probably just inherently comes with with being a parent and watching your child go through something like that and Not being able to do a whole lot about it other than provide support. So, you know, I got through a pretty, pretty smoothly, I guess you could say if that's possible, but it was. You know, I think it was probably a lot of just awkward kind of weird feelings between friends and family that you know probably deep down there they're, you know, wondering if they're, you know saying goodbyes or there to help you pull through, and and of course you know you hope that it's gonna be the, you know, the pulling through part, that that you're a part of. But you just never know and there's probably some some awkwardness there.
Speaker 2:I would say yeah, definitely, and that situation also as somebody, a family member or friend, you really don't know what to do. I do ignore everything. Yeah, you're just like, oh, hey, dude, how are you doing kind of like let's ignore everything, right? Or are you like, wow, let's have a heavy, deep conversation, right? You know, yeah, it's everything that somebody did to you differ, or a bunch of people did the baby. They were like, wow, that's especially, that was especially helpful, that attitude of that way of being.
Speaker 3:I think I had a great support system. I just I had amazing friends and, and you know, I think my attitude, they fed off of my attitude, which was just, you know, hey, I'm gonna beat this thing and there's just no two ways about it, and Kind of the athlete mentality, right, like you don't know if that's true, but that's, that's just what you have to focus on. You know, I think so. My wife now we had just started dating back then and I tried to break up with her because, just because of the circumstances, it was like, hey, listen, you know, that's it's great, but we've been dating for a little less than a year and you know, even if these just don't naturally work out between us, you know, what are you gonna do? Break up with the kid who's who's dying of cancer? I think it's, it's just that weird, you know, save, save you from yourself kind of a situation. But she wouldn't have it. And you know, 17 years later, here we are married with two kids, and what an amazing kind of pivotal moment, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's absolutely wonderful that she stuck by, and in such difficult circumstances at that time. And good portend, I think, for later, I think as well. And and what was it like then for you? Then you, just how did you continue worried? How did you start your own be like education, would you go to college or what did you do first?
Speaker 3:Yeah so. So I had graduated from the University of Arizona in Tucson but you know I was, I was media arts and music and recording engineering and that kind of stuff and doing A lot of audio work and I had grown up as a musician. So of course I had, you know, zero sciences. So I had to cram about two years of of Anatomy, physiology, you know, cadaver course and and physics and all of those Pre-wreck courses into convince the community college close by to let me take an absurd amount of credits per semester and I was taking a lot of the courses that were, you know, like 101 and 201 concurrently To try and get in, you know, back to school. So ended up knocking all of those out in a year instead of two and then Just kind of climb away into a program to try and make it happen as quickly as possible. Once I knew that that was absolutely the route I wanted to go, it was fortunate enough to Go to Cal State and and had an amazing experience and then just really had a lot of kind of mentors and opportunities along the way to work with some amazing Patient populations and, you know, do rotations at places like Naval Medical Center in San Diego and and CFI and Really work with some high-end.
Speaker 3:You know, when I got into the field, I wanted to work with athletes because that's what I wanted to get back to doing and and figure there there has to be, you know, better things out there than than what I had been exposed to so far and it was definitely eye-opening, kind of going back to school and learning about those things. And I still remember our program, one of our instructors, you know, kind of going around and asking people, you know, what, what do you want to do within the field and this and that. And of course my answer was, you know, I want to work with athletes and he said, well, that's, that's amazing, but you better come up with a backup plan because it's like 1% of the population. But somehow I managed to kind of weave that in. Everywhere I've been had a lot of opportunities to work with some amazing people and some high-level you know, just weekend warrior types and also Wounded warriors, which are just an incredible population to work with, and then also, you know, all the way up to Paralympic level athletes.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's really cool. Did that change how you approach your education as well? The that kind of like did you do. You feel that you had to go do a certain specialization, you had to get into a certain Internship or something like that, because you knew already that you were going to work with these set groups of people?
Speaker 3:I Think that was just more of a personal goal. It was certainly the things that I wanted to learn about for myself and it was the you know the populations that I wanted to seek out and find a way to make it happen. But I think that's probably something that you know. My classmates Were annoyed with me. I was the kid that was always asking a million questions and really wanted to dive into it. You know such a personal connection to it, right, and I'm sure that along the way I was, I was that guy that wouldn't let class just be over because I wanted to dive into. You know why this or why that even before school.
Speaker 1:Yeah you kind of alluded to it that you know you were, you had your amputation and then you faced some struggles and Then you were like, hey, I need to figure out this for myself. Can you take us down that journey and the why of actually doing that for?
Speaker 3:yourself. Sure, I, you know, one of my first goals was to get back to snowboarding. I grew up playing football and baseball and soccer and and snowboarding and all of those kinds of things, and just, you know, An athlete in general not, I wasn't winning any, you know, Not breaking any world records or anything like that, but just something that I loved to do. And I wanted to get back to doing those things and, kind of to your point, your asset defining me was more of a not wanting it to define me right. And so you hear a lot of times about people who ask you know, will I ever be able to run again? It's like, well, when was the last time you ran? Oh, never. I hated it. But you know, all of a sudden it's this checklist that they wanna do.
Speaker 3:You know, I did those things before, but I really wanted to get back to doing them and not let this become something that defined my functional abilities and at the time, I think early on, I really wanted to become a Paralympic athlete. But then, you know, that was the realization that I kind of needed to pick. Okay, the trajectory for those athletes is Eat, Sleep, Breathe, Training, and it's a very different, you know challenge and path and that doesn't really line up with wanting to go back to school and, you know, become a clinician and do a residency and start a family and all those things. So you know, I certainly realized early that I wanted to change that path. But the clinical side and you know, like I said, the selfish kind of motivation there of wanting to get myself back to those activities, was really sort of the catalyst to seek out all of these.
Speaker 3:You know higher technologies and advanced, you know socket designs or different things, Because I just had so many problems and admittedly you know I'm a difficult fit, I'm a extremely atrophy trans-tibial amputee and getting started. You know, I had probably I went through about three prosthetists here in the state of Arizona who were amazing people, but it just couldn't quite crack the nut right, Couldn't quite solve the puzzle, and I think that's really what motivated me to go back to school to figure out like, is there, is there something better, or can maybe I be involved in advancing that field or that experience for others.
Speaker 2:Okay and so, yeah, I like this idea because you seem to have like this, like being an athlete is kind of a mentality, and I bring that mentality to my work and that drives me. You know, did you see it like that? Did you see it in that game, kind of like way? Or is it just like I need to make my life better now? Or what was the reading driver then for you to make you so, you know, doing you know two colleges of one and then attacking this full on being like the ultimate kind of prosthetics nerd in classes, or have you always just been like that?
Speaker 3:Maybe a little bit of both, and I think you're right. I think that just inherently sort of that athlete mentality is. You know, you push and you you just don't let things stand in your way. You know, especially I coach my kids in baseball, especially right now, and one of the things that you know as a baseball player you learn is baseball is just a game of failure. But the great ones learn to overcome that failure constantly, right, because it's never gonna be easy. And you just have to have the mentality of I'm gonna win the next one, right, I'm gonna win the next pitch, or I'm gonna get the next play.
Speaker 3:Or you know you have a fitting that goes wrong or something where you think it's gonna be a slam dunk and a patience in pain or just not happy, or whatever design or treatment that you thought was gonna be the right answer isn't quite it, and so instead of letting that sort of derail you right, it's just gotta be okay.
Speaker 3:How do you fix it onto the next one?
Speaker 3:Let's conquer this. And I think you know, maybe that's the theme of everything that I've done kind of growing up from the cancer diagnosis to, you know, having the amputation and changing careers and in my work now and just wanting to be, you know, I think, leaving a mark on the field in some way, and maybe that's, you know, maybe that's reality or realistic and maybe it's not, but I think that's sort of the way I approach it in. You know that passion of mine for the field is wanting to make things better for myself and wanting to make things better for other people who maybe, you know, follow in my footsteps in the future as patients, as prosthetists, as orthotists. And you know a lot of the volunteering and sort of the things that I have had a chance to be involved in over the years and I continue to be is just sort of that goal of wanting to leave a mark in some way, whether it happens or not, who knows? But you know you work hard at it and then hope that maybe it does.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay, I just wanted this is a really random question, but you used to have a radio career. So you're sitting in your studio, you're basically not doing anything with your body and your hands, right, and you're talking all that and it seems amazing, right, you talk for a couple of hours, go oh how's the day at the office? Super hard. And then now you've got a job where you're basically interacting with people a lot of physicality, there's a lot of touching people, there's a lot of tools and moving things. Is that changing that difference? It's a really random question, really, but I just think that I couldn't really come up with this like profession that is so different, so only based on the voice and the intellectual, and then only and then so physical, as being an orthotist and prosthetist.
Speaker 3:Now I think you're probably right. I probably couldn't have gone much further to either end of the spectrum. I don't think that either. I don't think I was necessarily pigeonholed into that sort of lower activity. Like you said. Sit in mind a desk and a mic.
Speaker 3:There's plenty of other things that goes along with that job being out and doing thumb stuff out on the streets and I was kind of the nighttime high school doing the stunts and all the silly things. So I got out and did a lot of that and a lot of awesome opportunities going and hosting concerts or taking people backstage. There was plenty of collaboration and public facing things, being hosts of different events and things like that. But I think you're right, it's a very different shift to go from something like that that really honestly doesn't require a whole lot of education. There's a skill set that's very specific that goes along with it, but it was just a fluke kind of fell into it thing.
Speaker 3:And then you switch to the other side and going into the medical field and OMP, which has its own crazy twists and turns and in some regards is a very, very cerebral, very high education type of environment and man. We're running around the clinic all day, every day, and hands on, and I love that, though that's really in my wheelhouse. So I'm so glad that that journey ended here, or has. Hopefully it doesn't end here, but hopefully I got a ways to go, but it's taken me here so far.
Speaker 2:And do you think also, and then hold on like as you were also a patient what has been as a patient? Let's say what's been the major improvements. Have there been technologies during your life as a patient? Let's say where you're like wow, that was a huge improvement for me. Like either it was functional, making you less tired, making you able to do more stuff. There's been like a technology or like a development in the market that really has benefited you.
Speaker 3:You know I get this question often and it seems like my answer almost contradicts itself because and maybe Brent can speak to this a little too but from my perspective, not a ton has changed in the way we deliver care, right in socket designs, and in the principles and the biomechanics and all of the different things that we're trying to accomplish and the ways that we accomplish those. It's still the same baseline approach. It's still the same principles that we're using, but you sprinkle in the right mixture of education or the right mixture of critical thinking from a clinician or problem-solving skills. And you know, and maybe one of the things that really drove me crazy early on, that kind of you know, nudged me into this path is sort of the common thing that when you talk to amputees you hear a lot that they said oh, you just have to get used to that and I hated that answer and I never thought that that was correct. In a way, I think that that's used as a cop-out sometimes to you know limit. Of course there's constraints on time, there's constraints on, you know, money and materials and all those things, but really I think a lot of the challenges that maybe your average patient might come across sometimes I think they have to end up settling for what they don't realize is not quite an optimal outcome, right, and I really wanted to be able to kind of affect that or raise that bar a little bit. So I think when you look at technology, maybe it's more of the.
Speaker 3:You know, one thing that helped me a lot is elevated vacuum.
Speaker 3:My distal tibia is so, so, bony and just, you know, paper thin, probably to some extent from some of the chemo that I was getting that they don't give anymore because it attacks muscles so badly. But I was such a difficult fit to become comfortable and having a hard time just walking and putting pressure on it to where it's like how am I gonna get back to running and doing triathlons, which I do now? And that was almost, you know, oh my gosh, this may not really happen kind of a moment back then. But I think when you start combining some of the just the principles going on in the socket and how do we stabilize the bone, how do we stabilize the tissue, how do we provide a better interface and a better suspension, and all of these things just lead to a lot better outcomes than can be had if it's sort of just the efforts you know for face value there in the beginning and then it's not a critical problem that somebody wants to solve because they don't have to.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that's an interesting approach. I mean, I think and I'd be more interested also in understanding like and if a prosthesis is doing something wrong if you will or not optimal right From the point of view of the patient what is it? Is it that they're not showing enough empathy, or is it not that they're not bringing too much new technology, or they're not problem solving enough? Where is it really kind of like? Or what are key skills that people could improve to improve the service of the patient?
Speaker 3:I think maybe a bit of that empathy. And listen, it's not, you know, part of the reason that I have been successful, I think, is because it is so personal for me. But there's lots and lots and lots of amazing people out there who are just as successful, if not more successful, than I am, and you know they don't have the personal connection as a wearer. So that can't be the only answer, but I think that I think one of the things that has really been an advantage for me in my career as a prosthetist has been that different level of empathy. And you know, every case that I approach is a little bit personal, right, and I don't want it to let you know, I don't want it to be the one that stumps me. So I think that that really helps and hopefully, you know, I think you'll find that the really excellent clinicians out there that are at the top of their game, probably in any field, are really sort of the ones that approach every single problem, as you know, a personal challenge for them.
Speaker 1:And I think that's really interesting that you say that as far as like, not only a personal challenge. What would you say to somebody getting into the field though I mean, it's pretty easy to get in over your head I would say, right, and you're out on an island, so to speak, when, what do you tell young people like, hey, you know you are gonna have somebody come in the door, that it may be a little bit outside of your wheelhouse. What do you do there?
Speaker 3:It's a great question and I don't know if I have the secret sauce for that, but I think anytime you just approach it as this, I may or may not be successful back to that sort of, you know, athlete mentality.
Speaker 3:You're gonna struggle with some and the difference between success and failure is how you respond to that initial struggle right, and it's not only success or failure for you for that case, but it's for that patient potentially, you know, to sort of change like the trajectory of their recovery or their path.
Speaker 3:And so just understanding that and finding a way to balance appropriate resources. You know, I think all of us would love to just materials didn't cost anything, technology wasn't an issue and everybody had access to all the time and all the resources that they need to get everything perfect. But that's not the reality either. So you know you have to work within the bounds of what you have from a time perspective and in the clinic and a business perspective and all of those things. But I think when you just really approach it from a internalize it, make it a personal challenge on each one, it helps you to really sort of make those little changes or that little bit of difference where, hey, this is good. I could just, you know, hand this off and finish this thing with no modifications, or I could take the extra time to say, hey, I wanna tweak this one little thing to try and get that much closer to perfect, and I think everybody has their own level of how much their appetite supports that right.
Speaker 1:What do you see as far as just attitudes from patients and such? You know, from when you started to now on, a patient's tolerance for those types of changes, like I feel like having the empathy and transparency and kind of rapport with the patient makes a big, big difference in like hey, I really want the best for you and each patient knows that they are a unique challenge or pose a unique challenge. How do you communicate that with a patient? Or what do you feel is the best way to communicate that with a patient of like hey, we're going in a direction and I want the best for you and I absolutely need your feedback and such, but we're gonna get there together right, and you build that rapport. What do you feel is the best way to do that?
Speaker 3:I think the communication side really just lays that foundation and one of the things that I tell you know, everybody that I come across from a, from a, you know, from a patient's perspective, right, each client that I see, I say, hey, I think this may be something we should consider doing right, and this may be the right answer, or this may be wrong, or I want to try this and it may work or it may not.
Speaker 3:But you know, I think a lot of times, especially within our field, we just have sort of this common response from people that they almost have to convince their patients why they should be there. You know, I'm the best, or yeah, this is gonna be perfect, or oh, we can solve that, no problem, and that's great. But I think sometimes it sets unrealistic expectations. Or if you run across challenges that aren't perfect, right, now, all of a sudden there's sort of the red flags are up for the patient, and so, you know, I commonly and kind of giving the I want to under promise and over deliver kind of a speech, because we're fitting dynamic human bodies with these static devices and there is no perfect answer for that. But, like you said, we're gonna get there together and if something's not correct, then you know I can guarantee you I'm gonna take the time to make sure I do everything I can to make it as close to perfect as possible.
Speaker 2:But I like that. I like that a lot. And that kind of drive also makes me really curious about your own processes. I mean, is that some super mega tricked out robot thing? Do you have like a hundred Like? You seem to like really put a lot of attention to this. I'm wondering what you do for yourself.
Speaker 3:No man, it's like the cobbler's kids with no shoes right. There's never time for my own leg.
Speaker 2:Like a wood thing, like a yeah.
Speaker 3:No, as a triathlete I am fortunate to be able to have access, to have a running leg and a cycling leg, and, you know, an everyday leg and a shower leg, or not a shower leg but a water leg, you know, for the pool and the beach and things like that. But you know that's a luxury. Unfortunately Not everybody gets that. But by the same token I think, yeah, you know, in a perfect world I would have been working on my own leg a year and a half ago. I'm sure there's some colleagues who are listening to this part and laughing and I'm gonna get a bunch of text messages at some point saying, yeah, your leg's been sitting on the bin in the shelf for the last year and a half because you need to finish it. So it's busy, life's busy and the clinic's busy, and so there's never time for my own stuff. But you know, I guess it gets put on hold until it's like critical and then I make my own stuff. But a bit of a blessing and a curse there.
Speaker 2:I thought we were gonna see some major major like cutting edge robot stuff. But that's always true, right?
Speaker 3:But you know what, I've been super fortunate, I think, because of you know my circumstance and my passion to be involved in some of that type of technology development.
Speaker 3:So you know, I've been able to be a clinical prosthetist and a consultant and then also the guinea pig as the person who they're developing that particular technology for.
Speaker 3:I wish I could talk about, you know, all of the cool things that I've had a chance to do. A lot of them are still kind of under NDAs, but you know, I've been able to do some things on bionic feet that are waterproof and can run and some, you know, implantable wearable tech that goes into prosthetics or into liners, and some of that product development or validation, which has been just such a cool thing to do and I think has really sort of scratched that itch for me, cause, you know, at the end of the day, I'm not a researcher. I am. It's so interesting and it's something that I find so fascinating. But, man, like, when you really start drawing the lines between researchers and non-researchers, I am clearly a non-researcher but I love to help facilitate that and be a part of it without having to be, you know, in the trenches of you know the academic side there in particular, so something that I'm super fortunate to be involved in.
Speaker 2:Well, totally, that sounds really exciting. I think also one thing that's really interesting we didn't really go into like where you've been and stuff, but at one point you worked just like a branded hanger right, I did, yeah. And so later on you were an artificial limb specialist, which I think was acquired, I think afterwards there was a part of auto book and then and now you're at more of a regional, kind of like a family-owned practice. So those are three very different kind of setups and at the same time this is like the trend if we talk about the market, the OMP market, either Brent starts griping about reimbursements or we start talking about this development of like either these central fabrication or a role of auto book company making more and more and taking over more and more of specialist care, or the role of a hanger and just becoming this kind of giant chain that takes over all the businesses. Do you see that happening as well? Do you see those kinds of trends evolving these different types of kind of vehicles for caring for people?
Speaker 3:I think it's really interesting to see, sort of like you described, the different arms that have sort of grown out of this monster that is OMP. But I don't a lot of people kind of take that negative approach oh, it's all gonna be, we're all gonna be working for corporate giants or there's not gonna be any of this or it's all gonna shift to that or whoever's gonna take over the world. And for the first time now you've got even though it's been happening slowly over the last 10 plus years, you've got manufacturers in patient care in the US as well, which has been happening overseas for a very long time. And yeah, it's funny to think I start feeling really old when we started talking about this, because it's like I've worked.
Speaker 3:Each job that I've taken has initially been a private practice job. That then one got acquired by Hanger and I stayed there for a couple of years and really enjoyed my time there, moved on to another private practice, coming back to Arizona with artificial limb specialists and just an absolute kind of boutique setting there working on a very unique patient population. And they got acquired by Audubonk and spent a few years in that entity and there's so many good things happening in every aspect of the field, but they can be very polarizing. But I still feel like especially now being back in a private practice role and this time with a little more influence on how things are done but I still think that there's room for all of these things to coexist. There is absolutely a benefit to having a national giant like a Hanger or whoever that could be. There's benefits to having some of these bigger companies and the Ocers on the Audubonk enter the patient care field.
Speaker 3:I understand the challenges with that as well and, of course especially for me coming from that personal connection to the field I hope that the leadership structures from both of those entities continue to make the right choices, as opposed to mandating product that's used or I think that's the fear, right? Hey, if we let these manufacturers into patient care, they're going to eventually try to gobble us all up and everybody's going to be getting the same exact thing. I really don't see that. I haven't seen it in the past with where I've been and I just don't see that that would really be something that consumes patient care as we know it. I think there's always going to be a need and a premium put on that boutique or independent or just regional type of a practice, if nothing else because our patient populations are so diverse. Right, there's not one model that's going to fit the needs of every single person out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the one hand, we can be hopeful and we can look at the pizza. Analogy is always the one they go out to a pizza. They go out to a really cute local restaurant for pizza. They also go to like a pizza hut kind of thing. There's different modalities to deliver the same thing and there will always be people that want a premium and a more personalized solution.
Speaker 3:So I really hope it's a great example. I think you're spot on.
Speaker 2:And I hope that that's the same as well. I mean, I think the issue, of course, yeah is if you can change, if you can lobby more for the laws to benefit bigger companies, or if you're central fiving everything in India. This is like the scenario we keep talking about just ship it from India, then I think a lot of things will change. Then it becomes very economically very difficult to be like a really kind of small shop.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, and I think that sometimes being nimble and being able to try technologies especially circling back to the specialty for you guys and for this podcast right, is sometimes the small company is much more versatile and can try some of these things where trying to roll that out in a large corporate or global structure is a major challenge and a major roadblock and it's hard to pivot when you're trying new things at that level.
Speaker 1:What has your experience been? And then you probably knew that this was coming with additive manufacturing. It's something that Joris and I spend a lot of time on. He is a consultant. Big companies come to him and say, hey, does this technology make sense for us? And then obviously I was a full-on plaster guy, thought that scanning was for the birds and I've kind of made a full circle. I guess you would say that. But what has your experience been with additive manufacturing? Or what do you see? How does that puzzle piece fit in our field?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm probably a similar path to you just nowhere close to as far along as you are, brent, and I think that, starting out almost to a little bit of a snobby kind of a tune, I was a hands-on, plaster, 100% kind of guy and I think, taking those same approaches and that same level of just critique on what I do, I'm finding that there's a lot of possibilities out there from a digital workflow whether that be scanning or modifying in a plasterless kind of a scenario or to additive manufacturing. I haven't got to the point yet where I've done a lot with the additive side in the clinic no-transcript. We have a Creality machine here that we play with with the kids and I've kind of dipped my toes into it and started to understand it better. But I've also gotten a chance with Autobox to really getting a look at some of that digital stuff that they were developing and I think it really opened my eyes to, moving off of my stance, that the digital and the scanning and sort of that automated workflow I thought years ago was more something that elevated the floor, so the people who maybe were less skilled or had less clinical judgment or just that skill set for the hands was not quite there. You could get to a baseline where you've elevated the floor substantially and really raised the bar in that way, but I didn't know if necessarily for that high end stuff it was really possible or if it was just a shortcut.
Speaker 3:But I'm starting to learn more and more that the things that I wanna do and the level of critique and detail that I have for my own cases can absolutely be duplicated and in many ways made a lot easier with a digital workflow. It's just taking the time to learn how many reps have we gotten in plaster to learn what we do and what that means. And it's a different medium and you just have to take the time to learn what that other medium translates to on the patient fit side. So I'm going along that journey now and excited to start implementing a few of those technology factors and some software. I'm really grateful now that my position with Wheeler were kinda running a few different technologies kinda in parallel to see where some of these strengths and weaknesses are and we're not limited from a cost factor, cause that's absolutely something to consider. But I'm excited to be able to sort of dip my toe in a number of different things and try to get a better understanding of where they shine and how they can be useful.
Speaker 2:Okay, that sounds very wonderful, I think. And one thing that I think I wanna talk about you're also involved with the American Academy of Orthotists and Prosthetists and I hope you have an annual word called the ulcer. But no, but tell us a little about that, because we haven't talked about you guys before. And I just thought about like, first off, why would you do this? I mean, why should I get involved? I mean, I assume I can join this organization or not and I volunteer for it, that kind of thing, so why is that something that I should be doing?
Speaker 3:You bet well, I mean you should. I'll throw the challenge out to you right now. So the Academy is something that, with my desire really being to just advance the realm of patient care and O&P, this was a perfect way to not only help my own clinical journey but then also sort of the leadership and the mentorship that I received and now can give to others and kind of back to that putting a thumbprint or helping to steer the field a little bit through volunteer opportunities. So I'm on the board of directors right now for the Academy and so grateful for the opportunity to help sort of be a voice in the leadership of our field in a certain way. But really the mission of the Academy is to bring clinicians and providers together and members of the O&P community from all over whether that's through the technology side or affiliate members and people who are just interested or stakeholders who maybe aren't professionally involved with the field but have an interest in it, and there's a lot of potential crossover there. And I think one of the misnumbers is that you have to be a clinician to join the Academy, but that's not true yet. There's certainly a focus on bringing clinicians and providers together to advance things like research and disseminating information and all kinds of different avenues, but it really is. There's an avenue and an opportunity there for anybody who's interested in the field to be a part of that discussion and be a part of that mission or just learn from like-minded people. So I get to serve on the board of directors I probably have my wife would tell you I have too many commitments now but I chair the Publications Committee, I'm the chair of the Education Development Council for the Academy and then also the chair of the Scientific Societies and that's a really cool niche within the Academy as well, because the nine about to be 10 societies.
Speaker 3:I've been pushing pretty hard trying to bring a bone anchored prosthetics society to where we're just at the finish line of getting that launched and having some amazing collaborations between surgeons and doctors, physiatrists and patients and even manufacturers and clinicians. Again, that's another area where people think, oh no, osteo integration or bone anchored prosthetics are gonna be the end of the prosthetist because they're gonna take away the sockets, and I don't think so at all. There's so many opportunities there to take care of that patient population and so many unique benefits to that as well. But it's such a young part of the field, that it's something that I'm hoping to really get off the ground and make something special from that. And then on the publication side, I get to be involved as the chair of the Publications Committee with helping to get the Academy Today's published.
Speaker 3:And it's been 20 years that the Academy Today has been going on.
Speaker 3:In January It'll be 20 year anniversary.
Speaker 3:So it's an opportunity for clinicians to share their patient care experiences and it's something that's less rigid than a peer reviewed journal like the JPO, but it's great for case studies, it's great for emerging technology, it's great for all of these just little nuggets that you can really make your clinical practice shine or take it to the next level by sort of participating in or even just consuming some of that.
Speaker 3:And the scientific societies are groups of members who are focused in certain areas or have a passion for that area that are really helping to put that content out there and advance those particular areas of patient care. And then, of course, like you mentioned earlier, that kind of leads into the podcasting that I do now, as the clinical care insiders podcast has taken off for the Academy and we reach out and have discussions that are just sort of more relaxed, like you guys do with people who are in a specific area of patient care each month. So funny. I mean the three of us. I'm sure 20, 30 years ago we all thought we would be sitting here on a podcast talking about these things as opposed to diving into our profession's hands on right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I tell you that I think it's very different to this whole kind of like the socialization of information around it and also the people trying to publish stuff and go into discussions. It's kind of the podcast I think has been around, that, you know, has been around for that long and it's just like a really trendy thing now. But I think what we you know why the reason, bren and I do this is there's no faster way to learn for us, and then the fact that there's an audience that's good for them. I think. I think we still do this mainly for ourselves, mainly for ourselves, and just the idea of these fascinating conversations and journeys like yours, I think it's and it's just a really great way to for us to learn very, very quickly about, like you know, other journeys and other ways forward and other wisdom in this field. So thank you for yours today, seth, it was really wonderful.
Speaker 3:My pleasure and you know. Congratulations to the two of you too, because you know you mentioned I think we all kind of do it for ourselves, you know, for fun at first, whether it's podcasting or even just getting into the field. But I mean just the transformation that I think you guys would probably agree you felt from episode one to now, and the people who are listening and who share that passion with you. I mean listening to the journey of the Prosthetics and Orthotics podcast, which you know I've been listening to since day one. You know has been great. So congratulations to the two of you as well.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, seth.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much yeah we have to apologize for those first few episodes, for sure. You know we would. We would, oh man, what were we doing?
Speaker 3:That's the good stuff, that's what keeps. That's back to the being real right. When you tell your patient, hey, listen, we're gonna do this and it may or may not work, they're in. And when you expose yourself for for hey, we're gonna just chat about this stuff because we find it fascinating, people buy into that. I mean it's great.
Speaker 2:All right. So thank you so much, Seth, and thank you so much for listening to us today and this is a wonderful discussion. I hope you enjoyed it as well. Have a great day.