What if losing a limb didn't mean losing a life? That's the question we tackle in this riveting episode featuring the brave and inspiring Ben Srulevich. Join us as Ben recounts his life-altering accident and shares his 20-year journey with prostheses. His courageous story paints a hopeful picture that goes beyond mere survival; it's about thriving in spite of challenges. From his work as a police officer to his passion for disc golf, Ben demonstrates how prostheses have not only replaced his lost limbs but have profoundly enhanced his capabilities.
Ben reminds us, it's not just about the devices; it's also about the relationships fostered with prosthetists. Hear how his bond with prosthetist Chris Baughman extends beyond prosthetics, turning a professional relationship into a personal one.
Finally, we delve into Ben's role in the remarkable development of active prostheses with NC State and UNC Chapel Hill. The power of this technology, which is driven by muscle signals, is truly groundbreaking. Ben shares how this innovative device has opened up possibilities he never imagined, and his hopes that it could do the same for others. This episode takes us on a remarkable journey through the evolution of prosthetics, and showcases how they're not just aiding those who wear them; they're empowering them. Tune in for an episode filled with heart, hope, and groundbreaking innovation.
What if losing a limb didn't mean losing a life? That's the question we tackle in this riveting episode featuring the brave and inspiring Ben Srulevich. Join us as Ben recounts his life-altering accident and shares his 20-year journey with prostheses. His courageous story paints a hopeful picture that goes beyond mere survival; it's about thriving in spite of challenges. From his work as a police officer to his passion for disc golf, Ben demonstrates how prostheses have not only replaced his lost limbs but have profoundly enhanced his capabilities.
Ben reminds us, it's not just about the devices; it's also about the relationships fostered with prosthetists. Hear how his bond with prosthetist Chris Baughman extends beyond prosthetics, turning a professional relationship into a personal one.
Finally, we delve into Ben's role in the remarkable development of active prostheses with NC State and UNC Chapel Hill. The power of this technology, which is driven by muscle signals, is truly groundbreaking. Ben shares how this innovative device has opened up possibilities he never imagined, and his hopes that it could do the same for others. This episode takes us on a remarkable journey through the evolution of prosthetics, and showcases how they're not just aiding those who wear them; they're empowering them. Tune in for an episode filled with heart, hope, and groundbreaking innovation.
Welcome to season six of the prosthetics and orthotics podcast. We are absolutely thrilled to have you on board. We're talking to experts who know their stuff, the patients who've experienced these technologies firsthand, the vendors who provided the tools and the thought leaders shaping the future. Together, we will uncover the ways to make the lives of those relying on these incredible technologies even better. We hope these discussions are going to be the highlight of your day.
Speaker 2:Hi everyone, my name is Joris Fields and this is another episode of the prosthetics and orthotics podcast with Brett.
Speaker 3:Wright, how are you doing, brett? Hey, joris, I'm doing well, man, and I see you've already been on LinkedIn and you gave a thumbs up to the idea of listener mail, so what are you thinking about that?
Speaker 2:I don't know, dude, do you really expect people to ask us questions like anonymous questions that we don't normally get? What's the idea of this? Because this is totally your idea. So if people are going to come in and ask a question, we're just going to talk about it or we're going to answer it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so at least what other podcasts have done. And what this listener had said was man, it would be cool if we can just write in questions that you guys can answer. You know, one from yours perspective, maybe one from us, and sometimes they're funny questions, sometimes they're serious about 3D printing or something else, and so we'll sit in. You know, if nothing comes in, then obviously then it's not, we're not going to do it. But you know, what's funny is that when I talk to people about the prosthetics and orthotics podcast and such, and they're like, well, where is Joris at? And I said, oh, he's in Spain. And they're like, well, that's interesting.
Speaker 3:And so then they dive a little bit deeper into you know, not only how we connected that sort of thing, but then finding out a little bit more of just the stats that are kind of interesting about the podcast. You know 80, some countries, over 40% outside of the United States, listen, and our biggest fans seem to be in Australia, which is cool. So I think it's really neat and unique. And I was actually talking to somebody else and they were saying that they're not, they're not, they don't know O&P at all, but they were interested in both of our perspectives on how we take on medical the take on medical devices, how to kind of sell into the space or or what have you, and because they were doing more in in scanning side of things, and so that was interesting to me.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's something we can talk with. That's a big, big, big subject to tackle, but but, yeah, sure, I think there's a lot going on. It's like adjacent to own people, but very, very different, in a lot of different markets, a lot of different devices and a lot of different things, so that could be something to me. Awesome, all right, hey. So who's on the show today?
Speaker 3:Well, I'm really excited about our next guest and his name is Ben Shrulavik and he will kind of share his journey of not only how he got into O&P but he is a user of orthotic or prosthetic devices as well, as you know.
Speaker 3:He can share the good, good, bad and ugly of you know how technology has influenced some of his prostheses, and we may even dive into insurance stuff and all that. But you know what I love about Ben is his heart for people and sharing really his journey and how he encourages people. He actually went with me to Guatemala a few years ago and our patients just loved him, you know, and he was there the long long hours and all that stuff being a part of it, and he was just a great part of the team and so it's interesting to kind of see it come full circle for me to see him in that kind of environment but then also to see him obviously at the office and being kind of one of our guinea pigs too for some of the technology stuff. So it's going to be a fun conversation today, okay, awesome.
Speaker 4:So welcome to show, ben. Thank you so much. Gentlemen, it's an honor to be here. Truly, I appreciate the time and the platform to be able to speak and share my thoughts and my life. It's 20 years over 20 years since the date of my accident, and I've got a very interesting perspective, at least from my point of view a very interesting perspective of the history of using and wearing prosthetics, and you know how, brent, you touched really well on it, how it sort of molded parts of my life and showed me not only my shortcomings but also the possibilities to far exceed what I thought I could do, and so I'm very happy to be here and then looking forward to answering all your questions.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's a sense of excitement. So, ben, first of all I'll be a toss. So for you, you're getting into a protection, or thought it was an accident.
Speaker 4:So in 2003, I was 23 years old. I was riding my motorcycle by Jones Beach on Long Island when a woman cut across a highway and broadsided me. My bike went down, the back left passenger peg pierced my left ankle, and when the bike flipped and I got thrown forwards over the handleboards about 80 feet, I went through three metal poles. And so I was a police officer at the time, not working, but I was a New York City police officer. I was in very, very good shape, I had about a three, three foot shoulder span, but those metal poles were only two and a half feet. And so what in between the poles? And so when I got thrown through the poles, my left arm and my left leg were nearly severed, and when everything was said and done, I ended up losing the left leg below my knee instantaneously, and the left arm was reattached for about two months and a day, and then it died and they had to cut it off. And then I spent an additional four months in the hospital recovering.
Speaker 4:I died five times in that accident. I flatlined five times on the table between. Well, I actually died on the scene of the accident, I died in the helicopter on the way to the hospital and then three more times in the 19 hours of emergency emergency surgery that I had immediately following my accident. When, when I woke up six weeks later, I woke up to the view on my back of no left leg and I had no idea what was going on with my arm because the nerves were totally severed. So I had no feeling and I started a new life. That morning or that afternoon, whenever, whatever time, I woke up, and you know I remember going back to sleep thinking this is a bad dream, but that I also remember waking up in that same position and a new trajectory of life, so to speak.
Speaker 2:This is interesting to me because I felt sorry for myself for way less stuff happening to me. So I think, if you're something like that happens, how do you even pick up the? You say it kind of very nonchalantly, but how do you switch gears from like I'm broken, I almost died and now I can't do my policeman job Presumably the policeman didn't work out as well, right, because you couldn't do it. How do you take all that in? So in one amount, or one week, or one day, even Like how do you even take all that information and then make it a positive trajectory?
Speaker 4:So it's really hard, but there's some factual errors there. Not only did I remain a police officer, I went from being a patrol officer to a narcotics terrorism investigator for four years in the intelligence division. I fought very hard to keep my job. The police department did nothing but help me along the way and, unfortunately, in the world that we live in, you sign a contract. You've got to uphold your end of that contract and because I was no longer physically able to perform the tasks of my job, the police department had to force me out. But I was able to push back through rehabilitation and further my career. With all that being said, you asked how did I process it? It didn't happen in a day, it didn't happen in a week, it didn't happen in a month or years, and 20 years later today I'm still processing through it.
Speaker 4:I've done some motivational speaking in my life and one of the things that I like to explain to people is, first and foremost, to each their own. What happened to me seems like the most chaotic, disruptive, horrible circumstances. I've met people that have it worse than me, and it took a long, long time for me to understand that what I've gone through affects me the same way that other people go through and how it affects them. It's different scales but it's still a weight and it's very, very inappropriate to try and compare my life to others. And I always tell people don't ever try to compare your life to mine. We've lived different lives. It's taken some maturity or maturing, I should say it's taken a lot of life experience to teach me that and although I've healed physically, for the most part mentally, I think for the rest of my life I'm going to be dealing with it.
Speaker 2:Okay. Do you have any specific advice for somebody in a similar situation? Waking up like that, you seem to say, okay, you fought hard for things. It's a gradual process. It takes time. What are some of the specific things you can tell people that are in the summer?
Speaker 4:In regards to waking up from a terrible accident or the sudden realization of the loss of limbs. Is that what you mean? Yeah, exactly what advice do I have? Breathe, don't forget to breathe, and baby steps. It's, I think, in human nature that when somebody is a challenge, I guess some people, when they see a challenge, they want to run towards it and they want to beat it and do better, and some people they want to hide, and it's not because of a lack of strength or inner strength, it's because they don't know how to process these changes, these real life, tangible changes that are happening. It just takes time, a good support system and as easy as it is for me to say, don't give up. You just, you never know until you push yourself through. And I hope that by the end of the podcast I'll have given several really good, clear examples of what I mean by that, but without the context, it's just words. Okay.
Speaker 2:And it seems like your job is very important to you and being able to continue, that was right. Did that give you energy? That being able to do work, that was like important, I'm sorry.
Speaker 4:So, yes, I think for a very long time I just wanted to. I wanted to contribute and I wanted to do what everybody else was doing, and I didn't want to get looked at funny and I didn't want people to comment about me. The beautiful thing about where I ended up was because of my disability. I was part of a office-based task force, but the work that I did in that capacity was life-saving on more than one occasion, and it was. I was able to be just as effective as anybody else, and that weighed very, very heavily on me in a good way. I needed to contribute. I needed to know that there was a purpose out there for me and that I could. I could try and achieve that purpose or surpass my goals, with or without my arms and legs.
Speaker 2:Darrell Bock, and actually I'm really interested. We've talked about right now a lot about prosthetics and stuff for people going around or doing triathlons and stuff like that. But presumably as a task force investigator, you spend a lot of time on the phone, a lot of time meetings, a lot of time behind a computer that kind of thing right, interviewing people, peter.
Speaker 4:Steele, that is correct. There was also a significant portion of intelligence gathering which happened outside of my office, darrell.
Speaker 2:Bock, okay, that's good. And for the inside of your office stuff, are modern-day prosthetics made adequately for that, peter?
Speaker 4:Steele. So loaded question. Let me try and explain that. Well, I'm going to ask for a little bit of latitude here, just to give my opinion on this as I start the explanation. Okay, when I worked I had to carry a gun. It was part of what my job description was and it was certainly where I worked. Because of the sensitive nature of what was happening, I had to have my weapon, which means I had to go qualify again to carry my weapon, which I did successfully with a 94% marksman or, by the way, one handed, and so I never felt comfortable carrying a gun without wearing my prosthetic device. And that's where I want to kind of start my explanation.
Speaker 4:For the most part, the functionality of the device was irrelevant. It was more of a cosmetic situation for me. And, with that being said, now we're going back. I had a Utah three elbow going back all the way back to that, to then it was about five years the model that I was using and it was quite incredible, but all it did was three things. Even to this day, well, the devices I have mostly have only done three things they bend at the elbow, they turn at the wrist and the hand opens and closes.
Speaker 4:So in what capacity was I really using that prosthetic device? I was carrying folders. I couldn't wait bear more than six or seven pounds on the arm before the arm would pop off because of the suspension methods. So that device really didn't do anything for me. And we're only talking about the arm at this moment. The leg is a whole other story. You know, to be, to be mobile, to be able to walk or run or walk stairs or whatever it may be, I mean, my legs are top notch kick ass devices and they've just gotten better and better and better from day one until now, and so it was imperative to have a leg, but an arm not so much.
Speaker 2:Okay, and then, and specific to your job, were there any like these legs, like, were there any problems with that? Like, for example, sitting in a car for a long time, sitting behind the desk for a long time if you really don't talk about optimized for these kind of devices, or are you saying that for that kind of thing, the legs were really. Yeah, they were sufficient. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4:Well, I didn't have to run and gun anymore. I didn't have to chase people, so I wasn't, I wasn't really trying to get around too quickly, and so my leg was was perfect. If I, if I had had the opportunity to be in my uniform out there, I would say that at that time, circa 2004, I don't know how well the legs would have worked for me. But fast forward to today's date. The leg that I'm wearing right now, literally I'm in my leg right now, man, I, I walk. I've hiked 10 miles in the past month with this leg on in one day, and so it gives me everything I ever could possibly need as far as mobility. And I was lucky enough to get a rotator, which is a device that acts as an ankle, and now I play disc golf, and that rotator gave me an extra 50 to 75 feet of distance in my drives. And so now we're starting to get into, you know, with later technology or more modern I should say more modern technology, the differences are really big in comparison to what it was in 2004.
Speaker 2:But it makes you happy that in a comparatively short period of time it's still a lifetime. In other ways, you know the industry's been able to advance. And then is it comfort, is it range, is it, is it just the portability, or is it just being able to do more stuff? All those things, what are the advantages for you?
Speaker 4:Well, number one is comfort, Because without it being comfortable, I get sore spots, I can't move, it changes my gait, it changes my ability to do everything. So, in my personal opinion, comfort is number one, and I work with a phenomenal team that I don't know a better word to say but the caters to my comfort. Because when I first met Brent and Chris and the rest of my team, I was Adamant. I was like guys, you know, it needs to be comfortable. The little Mike, them, the, the little things have to be adjusted. And back in the day, when we were using I don't know what it's called plaster Is that right, Brent? Was it a plaster cast? That's right? Yeah, okay.
Speaker 4:So back in the day when I was using a plaster cast system, you know the changes you couldn't make Microscopic changes. It wasn't digitalized, it wasn't a 3d printed socket where you could change Millimeters to give me that extra comfort that I needed, and so it was really really hard back in those days. I kind of had to just roll with the leg, um, as it was, and then the change period was two to three weeks, right, you had to go in, you had to get Recasted. That to do the plaster. You have to make changes and it was very um have to be careful what I say. It was difficult but life-saving.
Speaker 4:At the same time, the ability to make those changes, for comfort were always number one. Underneath in the priority structure, underneath comfort, is Device Performance, and so I was lucky enough to go through different types of. I Think there would be considered feet right, different feet that gave me different Responses to the, the forces that I put into them, the. The foot that I have now is a fill hour. It is a cousin of the cheetah and Brent, you could, you could specify the, the model itself. I'm sorry I don't remember it, but part of that cheetah family. It gives me ridiculous energy return and on my best days I can hop and skip and jump and juke and do all types of things that I never, ever, would have been able to do 15 years ago. I.
Speaker 3:Think that's me and I, you know, I think the other thing that's a that's you know we talk a lot about is this relationship and you, you sort of great, you know, with Chris, chris's Ben's prosthesis and and then there's a team behind Chris as well to help the outcomes. Can you just share with our listeners or somebody you know, the say a patient that's in, and just talk a little bit about the importance of that and just in even some of your journey you know you came from New York down to here finding a prosthetist that would work with you and that sort of thing and you know, give, give them a little bit of insight into just how important that team is and to not Settle Absolutely.
Speaker 4:So it's a little bit of a long explanation, but I'd like to start back at the beginning, if you don't, if you guys don't mind. I remember when I was still in the hospital, meeting a gentleman named more Goldberg, and more Goldberg turned out to be my prosthetist from the day that I Was in the hospital until the day I left New York, and I Remember Mark telling me he said you know, ben, your arm is going to be a challenge and we'll we'll find the way, we'll find our way to giving you the best possible future, an outcome, but the leg. I promise you, ben, that you will do everything you ever wanted to do using this leg. And it required an immense amount of trust to Hear somebody tell me that they're gonna get me walking again. When I didn't have a left leg, I Was like I don't, I don't believe you. I couldn't care what she said, and Over years I Built a relationship with Mark that allowed me to have faith in in the system. And Mark was the owner of his Company and he had a team of 30 people behind him. And the number of times I yelled and screamed and carried on and cursed and fought with people not physically and just and that's because I was angry, that's because, you know, I didn't want to hear I have to wait three weeks to walk again. I didn't want to be in a wheelchair anymore, I didn't. I didn't want to be immobile and I got it's just so many emotions and it was so close and so raw still from the trauma itself. It took years to build that relationship with Mark, but by the time that I had left, by the time that I left New York, I had a great relationship.
Speaker 4:Fast forward to 2015, I Went to get my concealed carry permit just a random class to get my concealed carry permit and in that class was Chris Bowman and After the first 30 minutes he walks up to me and he says so I see, you See, you lost to arm in your leg. And I was like who was this guy, you know, coming at me, talking like that. He was like it was like you have somebody to help you and you know, get, get, you, do everything. And I was not back. I was like no, he was like, well, we should get together, we should, we should talk. You know, we, I can help you. And I was like, okay, I was like sure, no problem.
Speaker 4:And the relationship that I built with Chris was so different than Mark. Oh, you asked me to touch on the relationship, brent, and if you're lucky enough to Find a prosthetist that's willing to hear you out, you should call yourself ahead of the game. I Was so lucky that Chris took a liking to me as a person, and Never pity, but a conscious awareness of the challenges that I go through on a daily basis. He has made me feel like I am his only patient for eight years and that is ridiculous, because I know his, his caseload, I know the number of patients he has. But to be able to have that relationship and that's a two-way street that goes a lot of give-and-take from my part and an immense amount that give and take from Chris's part and that relationship is so important.
Speaker 4:I would say Honestly, the relationship with Chris is more important than any device that I wear or use, because the device is just that, it's just an object, it's just a means to an end.
Speaker 4:But how you utilize it, how you can modify the little things to get maximum usage and efficiency out of them, I mean that Chris is a master at that and the coolest part is that in all the years that I've not the coolest.
Speaker 4:One of the coolest parts is in all the years that I've known Chris, I've seen other prosthetists and orthotists come through the practice and start as an intern and make their way into or, I guess, graduating from whatever program they were going through or maybe they already graduated and they're starting their career and to watch them learn the way that Chris has handled me and to be teaching that as well as all of the technical skills and the things that Chris or anybody there has to teach the newer interns, to see them absorb all of that and to do it with such compassion and heart, it speaks volumes to the unit as a whole, meaning East Point Prosthetics or orthotics as a whole, and it speaks even more volumes about Chris and the team.
Speaker 4:And always I mean I got guys, I got to tell you I can have a problem on Monday and by Friday it's fixed. I don't, I, there's no, you can't pay enough, you can't say enough for somebody in my position to know that in a real crunch time, in a problem time, that shit's going to get taken care of and I'm not going to have to worry man, I, you can't pay for that. I hope I did justice in that explanation, brent.
Speaker 3:No, and I think that's, I think that's amazing, that you know and that having that relationship, and I think that you hit a ton on it, some people may try to go to a prosthetist or orthotist because they know that they provide the, you know, the most technologically advanced. But the reality is, the most important thing is, is that relationship and the comfort side of things? I think the icing on the cake is obviously the function and all that from from the device. But yeah, no, I think you captured that. Well, tell us a little bit about the disc golf and how you got into that.
Speaker 4:Thank you for bringing it up. I was going to not bring it up now that you brought it up, disc golf. So I wish that somebody my friend Dominic, he lives in Pennsylvania put a frisbee in my hand, not a regular frisbee, a disc golf frisbee in my hand and he was like just throw it, he goes. If you can throw it, we can make it work. And it only took one day of throwing those frisbees for me to be like gosh, darn it. I was like this is something I wish I had picked up a long time ago.
Speaker 4:But I'm a year, a little over a year, into it and for those that don't know what disc golf is, disc golf combines ultimate frisbee and ball golf to be played with the frisbee that gets thrown into a basket at the end of the hole and it's run just like a golf course there's pores, there's hazards, there's out of bounds, you have strokes, birdies, pores, bogies, et cetera. It is an immensely growing sport. I'm part of the PDGA, which is the Professional Disc Golf Association, so I've got a PDGA number and I compete in sanctioned tournaments and I have a world ranking and I've got a personal ranking. It is awesome and I've had the ability to now play disc golf in four separate states, and it is something that, through the next 10, 15 years of my life, that I'd like to be able to do in many more states.
Speaker 4:And so what disc golf has given to me after 20 years, is the ability to have confidence and compete in an organized sport, and it's the most important thing that's happened to me in. Besides for the birth of my daughter, it's maybe the most important thing that has happened to me because it's given me the ability to be physical, to go out there and build my endurance, to go out there and yet again prove to myself that it doesn't matter what your disability is. If you work at something and you have the right tools, be it prosthetics or the right Frisbees, you can do it. I can do it, I do do it. Hell, I've gotten three old and ones already, and so I mean, anything is possible on any given day, and disc golf has brought in my world.
Speaker 3:So and then. But that also takes you back to relationships too. I know you'll throw as many rounds of, or holes or whatever, walk as many holes as you can. But you know, disc golf a lot of times is is about relationships and who you're going and throwing your discs with right.
Speaker 4:It is. And if I might give out a shout out to a gentleman named Frederick Seuson. Frederick I met the very first time I went to Kentwood Park disc golf course. He was teeing off on hole one. I showed up with some jankity you know crazy Frisbees and I tried to throw and he looked at me and he goes you're not doing that right. He goes you should try this, you should try this. And then he went to his bag and he gave me a disc and boom, I hit the drive on hole one. Not great right, but it went straight.
Speaker 4:Frederick is an exceptionally talented player. He's got the patience of a saint and I like to say that he took me under his tutelage and he is my mentor and I have built more than just a sport relationship. I hope that he and I have becoming as good friends as I think we are and over the time will become even better. But disc golf brought one of my best compatriots into my life and it happens every time I go to a golf course. You meet up with some people. Everybody plays differently, but everybody is kind.
Speaker 4:And again, brandon, you got. You got to figure, man. You see this dude, one arm, one leg, showing up on the tee pad, I myself would think, how is this guy going to play? But then I do on any disc golf course and play, and people will look at me and say you know what? That's pretty darn incredible. And a lot of times in life people have said to me I'm motivational, I'm inspirational, and I just found another niche where I can be me, and this one I can succeed and maybe even build a name for myself. I'm never going to be, you know, a professional, but I will be more than that double amputee. That, please. That's for sure.
Speaker 3:Right, and I love that. I mean you definitely are like I'm not using any, anything that's not sanctioned, right? I mean you it, from what I've learned about disc golf is there's, you know, there's the black and white, but there is some gray in there, right, and so how that goes is is awesome, but there's a camaraderie around playing disc golf. Ben, I wanted to ask you a little bit about your experience in Guatemala. You know that's near and dear to my heart and I know you're wearing that live enabled shirt today. I just wanted to hear, like what your, what your thoughts were. Do you suggest that other clinicians go on? Other patients see that? And, yeah, just kind of get your ideas.
Speaker 4:Well, talking about the most important things in my life. My trip to Guatemala was absolutely life changing. I don't know if there's a way to sum it up in 20 minutes how much it changed my life. I remember, brent, when we first first talked about it. I remember saying to you, have you ever brought an amputee? And you said to me no, we haven't. And I remember thinking to myself well, there's no way that I would ever really connect with a bunch of random people that don't know what it's like to live with the challenges. And I remember thinking to myself if I were to go, I think that I would be able to show some tangibility, give I would be able to give some tangibility to these ideas and devices and comfort to those who need it that haven't had the opportunity to get it from a stranger it was.
Speaker 4:It didn't matter how much we worked. We were there 10 days. It didn't matter if we worked two hours a day, which was very rare, or 10 or 12 hours a day, which was more likely. We did it without power, a couple of days, if I remember correctly. We had to figure out what to do because we lost power. It was incredible and at the end of the trip I had the opportunity to teach a 72-year-old man and a two-year-old boy how to walk on their legs for the first time. And when I processed that weeks later, I it was an epiphany, brent. I'd never had, I'd never had a good enough reason to justify what happened to me. Very angry at God, very angry at the world, very angry at everybody, everything.
Speaker 4:When I got home from that trip, I I started to think. I started to toss around in my mind the idea that if I had to lose my arm and leg, if I had to lose my dream career, if I had to go through what I went through to be in Guatemala to hug that man and hug that boy and watch the tears fall down their face, it may not be the best way to go about doing it, but at least I can understand why I was there. I had to give that, give my limbs, to receive the gift of helping somebody so selflessly. Then I guess I could get behind that a little bit. I'll never fully be behind losing my arm and my leg and my life changing. But if going to Guatemala was the reason, I could be okay with that. It was I'm sort of speechless a little bit. It was life altering that experience.
Speaker 3:Well, and it was just fun having you and I think the connection that you had with patients was really amazing. For them to see somebody in a similar situation to them and sometimes with the added of missing the arm, more of a serious situation, and I think that meant a lot to them.
Speaker 4:Let's switch gears just a little bit, brent before we switch gears, can I ask you a question? Don't you think that, me being there I think his name was Jonathan the motorcycle Don't you think that, seeing me on the other side of the coin, whereas the disability is not stopping me, but the disability is helping me, don't you think that was exceptionally powerful for Jonathan and for some of the other people, the patients that were there?
Speaker 3:To see that and then to have your experience being 20 years later I guess at that time it was 15 years later down the other side, and being able to share that hope too, that there is hope after an imputation with a prosthesis, I think that is a big, big deal and it gives them a forward focus of like, hey, if he can do it, I can do it.
Speaker 4:Well, brent, if I never thanked you before, let me say it right now. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to go to Guatemala and help build those arms and legs for those men, women and children. Thank you, and we're going to do that again. I will come, mark, it's all recorded. I will go back to Guatemala.
Speaker 3:There we go. That's awesome. Well, let's just gears a little bit and move into some of your journey, actually with the prosthesis. So we touched on it a little bit with in 2003,. You started with a specific style of prosthesis and then you've kind of foreshadowed a little bit into the socket that you're in now and you talked a little bit about digital manufacturing. So let's, I mean, if you want to give just kind of a quick summary of where you were and then we can dive into a little bit on the journey on the digital side, because that's all been amazing, but we've seen the change that it can be and so we've really pushed the boundaries using technology. I absolutely.
Speaker 4:I'll start with my first leg, but I just want to touch on something you just said. It may not have seemed amazing, but it's all been amazing. You have to be able to take a step back and click your zoom out one notch and look at it a little bit from a more global perspective the journey. You don't have successes without failures. There's nothing is perfect, and so a big part of the successes go right back to the relationships you have with the relationships a patient has with their providers, and failures have spawned even greater successes, and I don't consider anything a failure. I want to make sure, I want to make that very clear. You know, but when it doesn't go right, it goes wrong, and so it's either pass or fail or whatever you want to quantify that, so to speak. But let's go back to the very, my very first leg.
Speaker 4:My very first leg was. The socket was one foot 12 inches left to right. It had four inflatable pillow bladders on the sides. It had straps that went up and around my groin and my buttocks. It was so uncomfortable to wear, but I'll be damn, man. I got up and I walked with that thing. It was heavy, it was bulky, but, man, I got up and I walked with it. It was what a clunker man.
Speaker 3:I can't imagine all those strengths.
Speaker 4:But look it worked right. And then of course yeah, I mean I should let the listeners understand right my initial journey with prosthesis was a little bit complicated because they kept cutting pieces of my bone off and my leg and so as they kept cutting my leg bone, my leg kept swelling and so it was never really a way to get like a traditional leg liner on with a pin like I wear now. It wasn't, it wasn't anything like that. It took months, if not a year, before I was really in a position where I could slip my leg on and off, but no, but wearing before I saw. At least a year before I could get my leg on and off, I was walking, which was the most important part. So that was 2003 and 2004. Then when my leg stabilized and I haven't had any more surgeries on my left leg, then things really started rolling.
Speaker 4:You know, patients like myself deal with volume change more frequently than one would think in the prosthetic gain millimeters or miles, and so a little bit of swelling here or a little bit of shrinkage there or a rubbing spot here or really creates a problem within the socket and within the patient wearing that device and up until the sockets were 3D printed. The solutions to that were cutting holes in the sockets or opening up windows, or you know the whole. Look, you can take away you just can't put back that rain supreme and eventually you get to a point where you've taken away enough and now we need a whole new socket and then you start the process again. We're back in the plaster realm and so that's a two to three week process. You can, you know, even if you rush on that, you can get that down to five days or six days or whatever it may be.
Speaker 4:But then you have to have changes and you have to go through it all over again. And then one day it turned into a digitalized format where I can go in and I can have a couple of millimeters shaved from the back left. I can have some more space put in in the front right or on the distal end of my limb or whatever it may be. And it's so much better now with the advent of or the invent invention, with the, with the I'm sorry, let me say that start over. It's so much better now with 3d printing being at the helm of my sockets and the design.
Speaker 2:And just for a little reference how often do you have things changed or how often do you feel like you want to have things changed in terms of volume and fit and things like that?
Speaker 4:Oh, very big difference in the wording you just used. I don't want it ever to have to change. I would love for it to be in the scene and ride through. How often does it change? I mean, now that I'm playing disc golf, I've had a couple more changes because my body is both gaining weight via muscle but losing weight via water weight, and then so I've got, I've had more than my normal amount, but I would say every six months something happens where I need to at least look at the leg or look at the socket, and if I'm really really lucky, I get a year to a year and a half of not having to mess with the socket at all. But because of the changes in my life recently, it's happening more often. But ideally I would like to have the least amount of changes possible.
Speaker 2:Okay, this is a more sane way of looking at it, and other stuff, other things where you're thinking, oh, I really need help there, I need more comfort, I want more features like there's the stuff you really would want more of, or more control over the time.
Speaker 4:I gotta tell you, yorth, they've given everybody. I've gotten everything I've wanted. I don't know how else to say it, man, anything that that Brent or Chris or I would, you know, we pow wow everyone. When we're lucky enough to be in the office, the three of us together, you know we'll shoot the shit and we'll sit and we'll talk. And I'm very open with Brent. I always have been. I don't, I don't sugarcoat anything.
Speaker 4:And the beautiful part of the relationship is that that real raw information can now be used to make micro adjustments. And that's the key, right? It's not having to change everything, just change a little bit and let it ride and see how it works. And I think, since I've had the ability to make those micro changes, everything has gotten easier. Everything, even the tough, even even in a. I walk into the office with the bloody leg because I'm rubbed raw, whatever it may be, man, by the time that I walk out or by the time well, I need to elaborate on that. So my current leg the outer socket, is 3D printed, the inner socket is a rubber or I don't know, brent what is that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's a 3D printed BASF TPU, so it's kind of got a grid on it. So for some, a little bit of cushioning and such things like that Exactly.
Speaker 4:That's exactly what I said, but you know. But so with this, with this, this honeycomb pattern in the middle that you can now make millimeter changes on it prevents the outer socket from having to be remade and it allows you to make those changes on the inner socket. And I never and I, if you remember, brent, I was very much against it. I was like I don't want an inner socket, I want one piece. I don't want any of this. And, as always, we had a conversation Look, just try it when you need to make changes, you'll see it'll, it'll be better, you know. And, of course, nothing was ever forced on me.
Speaker 4:But, like you said, brent, I'm a guinea pig, always have been, always have been. I hope, before the podcast is over, I can share some of the experiments that I've been part of. I mean super lucky to be part of those, but I've always been okay with testing stuff out, because I always want the best and in order to get the best, you have to be the best. In order to be the best, you have to give, and I had to give my body, I had to give my time, I had to give whatever I needed to to make sure that I was really in the, the best of the best, of the best that's offered, that's available to me.
Speaker 2:All right, all right, I'll bite, I'll bite. So we'll still talk to us about a couple of these experiments on what would have been your favorite, oh my.
Speaker 4:God, my favorite one. So I have had the opportunity to be part of two experiments from NC State and UNC, chapel Hill, working on electronic prosthesis that run off of not your my brain, but off of my, my muscle movement. The best way I can explain it an electric ankle that pivots up and down While I'm making other steps, like I'm trying to walk up a hill, the ankle will adjust the foot in order to give me the ability to take a step on my left side. It was wild. They attached me. You guys know, if you make a video game or a movie for that matter, those little light balls that they put on you, it's like an outfit of balls. And then they set up these cameras and they capture your body movement.
Speaker 4:Do you guys know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah. So they set up that type of experiment, that type of environment, and then they recorded all of my body movements and then they took that data and it was put into the dissertation, the doctoral dissertation, in the defense of that device. It was so cool that I was able to be part of that. And then we parlay that experiment into a secondary experiment which focused more on the electrical signals that I was able to generate through my leg in order to fine tune and hone the capabilities of that ankle. So it was like a step up from not a step up, a step to the right from what I had already been doing, but still moving in a forward motion and trying to get this device released to the general public where, when completed, my natural body movement will enhance the device, which will allow me to do everything that I would want via electrical ankle.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yours, just to give you an idea on this. So they put and our listeners for that matter, they put essentially these myoelectric pads on his shin bone, which is the muscles that would raise your toes, and then on your calf, which are the muscles that would allow you to get up on your tippy toes, and those electrodes then will fire off these pneumatic muscles, allowing you to literally get up on your toes or say, if you're sitting down and you know how you might scoot your legs way back under the chair or whatever, it allows those toes to come up and that foot to be continue being flat on the floor. But it's really an amazing device. I mean it's a little ways from commercialization, but what's neat is you are getting true muscle input that goes along with this powered feedback that you're getting, and I mean it can literally jump for you?
Speaker 4:right, it can With the tanks that they used because they were gigantic, like you said, pneumatic tanks. When I wasn't wearing the socket, with the air pressure it could jump off of the ground like straight up in the air. It was wild, it was crazy. Now, look, it took an arm and a leg to be in that position Again. I fought for a long time about why this happened to me Again. To have the ability to be part of that and, in a real global sense, to help test a device that at some point in time will end up mainstream and allow people to do things they never thought were possible. Just to be part of it unblessed, yeah totally.
Speaker 2:I think I like that you can look at it like that and then think about helping all the people and then helping yourself as well in the process. And also I think that ownership I think that keeps coming back when we have patients here is that you feel powerless in the beginning and then, going forward, they do lots of things to empower themselves and get them in the driving seat again of their own life and also of that whole prosthetics experience inside.
Speaker 4:I touched on it before, there's two choices that a new amputee can make they can either move forward or they can hide. I know that that's very simplified, but that's what it was, and each of these opportunities that I've had have helped catapult me forward. Not move forward, but catapult me forward and push me past the worries, the regrets, whatever my mind can throw at me for being in the position that I'm in. These experiences always push me so far forward and, if I'm lucky, for the rest of my life, I'll always have those experiences to keep catapulting me forward.
Speaker 2:That's a lovely, lovely sentiment, and, ben, thank you so much for your story. It was really really wonderful you could share with us today.
Speaker 4:Oh, it is my pleasure, Like I said when I started. Thank you both for allowing me to talk, sharing my thoughts, and if there's ever follow-up questions or if the listeners want specific answers I know you were talking about that in the beginning of the podcast If anything pertains to me, just send them to me, have me back on, I'll answer them, whatever I can do to help get the word out and to be part of it. So thank you again, gentlemen.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. This is a very inspiring Ben and Brent, then thank you for being here, as well as always.
Speaker 3:Oh, this was great. And, ben, yeah, thanks for sharing your story. I know a lot of people will get a lot out of it and I think it's also important you know not only the clinicians and the empathy side of things, but clinicians being interested in being, or using new technology, because there's not a lot of people out there using the 3D printed technology yet. But to hear your story, I think it's just one step closer for somebody to try.
Speaker 2:Couldn't agree more. And then there's actually one more question I wanted to ask but I forgot to ask and maybe I'll ask it. But I was just really curious about one thing, ben when you move from one prosthetist to another prosthetist we talked about this before, right, so you had a good relationship with your first prosthetist you have to find another to click. But you know, you kind of develop. I think, especially after a number of years you develop kind of a vocabulary with that prosthetist in a way of working, and the next one is going to be different. So do you have any advice for people switching prosthetists, how to do that properly or in the right way?
Speaker 4:Sheila, I don't know if there's a right way. I think that the best way is unbridled honesty, the ability to speak your mind as a patient, to hold firm to what you know works, and hopefully the prosthetists can take that information and incorporate some new twist turns or figure out the way to allow life to continue or get better, utilizing the information that you give them, meaning the patient giving the prosthetist. I think that there has to be, unfortunately, a certain amount of faith, and no, what's the right word? Faith and trust that, at the end of the day, y'all are working together as a team to find the best possible outcome. It takes just like finding a new friend or building a new relationship. It takes time, it takes patience, it takes effort and you're not always going to get along. But it's okay to not get along as long as, in the end, everybody is respectful and the product that you end up with is the best for the situation that you're in.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you about it. That was great. And then thank everyone for listening, and this is an episode of the prosthetics and orthotics podcast with Brent Roy humorous peels. Have a great day.