Embark on a journey with us as we traverse the evolving landscape of prosthetics and orthotics, illuminated by the insights of our guest, Jeff Soelberg, founder of Jeff's Giving a Hand and Point Designs Ambassador. This episode is a testament to the power of technology and human resilience, painting a vivid picture of the latest strides in additive manufacturing and how they're revolutionizing accessibility in the field. We're peeling back the layers of innovation, from the intricacies of powder bed fusion in 3D printing to the personal victories of those who have embraced prosthetic limbs as extensions of their own bodies.
Delve into the heart of the matter with stories of personal transformation and a candid exploration of the mental challenges accompanying life post-amputation. We highlight the therapeutic importance of mental health support and staying active, revealing how these are crucial to rehabilitation. Discover the meticulous process behind acquiring the right prosthesis – a balance of patience, research, and communication – and recognize the profound impact of empathy and self-compassion on the journey back into the workforce after an accident.
We wrap up with a reflection on how 3D printing is not just changing the game in prosthetics customization but also redefining comfort and user interaction. As we venture into the future, we're committed to keeping you, our listeners, at the forefront of these breathtaking advancements. Join us as we celebrate the achievements within prosthetics and orthotics, and stay inspired by the boundless possibilities that await.
Embark on a journey with us as we traverse the evolving landscape of prosthetics and orthotics, illuminated by the insights of our guest, Jeff Soelberg, founder of Jeff's Giving a Hand and Point Designs Ambassador. This episode is a testament to the power of technology and human resilience, painting a vivid picture of the latest strides in additive manufacturing and how they're revolutionizing accessibility in the field. We're peeling back the layers of innovation, from the intricacies of powder bed fusion in 3D printing to the personal victories of those who have embraced prosthetic limbs as extensions of their own bodies.
Delve into the heart of the matter with stories of personal transformation and a candid exploration of the mental challenges accompanying life post-amputation. We highlight the therapeutic importance of mental health support and staying active, revealing how these are crucial to rehabilitation. Discover the meticulous process behind acquiring the right prosthesis – a balance of patience, research, and communication – and recognize the profound impact of empathy and self-compassion on the journey back into the workforce after an accident.
We wrap up with a reflection on how 3D printing is not just changing the game in prosthetics customization but also redefining comfort and user interaction. As we venture into the future, we're committed to keeping you, our listeners, at the forefront of these breathtaking advancements. Join us as we celebrate the achievements within prosthetics and orthotics, and stay inspired by the boundless possibilities that await.
Hi everyone. My name is Joris Pules and this is another episode of the prosthetics and orthotics podcast, and with me, as always, is Brent right. How you doing, brent?
Speaker 2:Hey, joris, doing well. Happy new year.
Speaker 1:Happy new year.
Speaker 2:I kind of wonder what's gonna go on this this year For for the prosthetics and orthotics podcast and beyond, of course.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's gonna be, I don't I. Well, I think I think the whole thing of what we used to do is like last year wasn't my year, this year is gonna be my year. I don't think anyone's doing that anymore, right and so that I don't think I was gonna do that anymore. But I think, well, for the prosthetics or orthotics part of it, I think you know, I think it is gonna be technological progress and just people getting ahead and maybe some consolidation. I think I think we're both and, yeah, I would Try to think that would be what we're both on thinking is gonna happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think the consolidation side of things Probably going to happen more and more. You know one thing I think for the prosthetics and orthotics podcast is you know one thing that I'm I guess I would say I'm proud of is that we've been very, very consistent. I don't know if you saw the, the buzzsprout. They do what they call a backtrack of just what we did and we we released 48 episodes last year and you know, but I know we recorded a bunch more. So I don't know where I'd have to look back at those numbers. We must have. Oh, you know what? We take a couple weeks between seasons, that's what it is before. So but still 48 episodes in a year is it's pretty doggone good. And I think the consistency is Is what's really attractive, and there were some crazy things that kind of came out of that. You know, the the top listen to podcast was the one that we did with Jen Rosati from Kenny orthopedics on Return on investment.
Speaker 1:I did not expect that actually, I thought that was actually good. I mean, maybe we should do more stuff like that, more kind of similar type themed podcast going forward, yeah well, and I Think this year is the year for business case, specifically in additive manufacturing.
Speaker 2:I can't tell you just the last week, which I was technically on quote-unquote vacation, right, I took a few calls on people that were like my technician is out now I'm like I might need to do some added manufacturing. I'd really like to look at it for next year. How, how do we do that? And what's interesting about all this is these are these are people that I talked to in 2018 and 2019. So this, this idea that the change is fast is is not true at all. So this is a you know, it's a four, five-year process Specifically to our industry to first somebody, to get to a point of being like, okay, I think I need to do something now totally, I think.
Speaker 1:I think it's also like it's also been never been easier. A couple years ago you would have had to do everything yourself with the card and learn yourself. And all this is all these more automated card solutions coming out. Scanning is still difficult, I think it's still way too difficult, but we've got some simple solutions like cone and stuff coming out as well, or you know. So that's also getting better as his file repair and I think on the 3d printing from the bamboo lab printers, I've made everything so, so so much simpler and have raised the bar.
Speaker 1:So the printers are going to be a lot more, a lot less finicky, let's say a lot more capable. The really entry level, or let's say a thousand or two thousand dollar printers are gonna be a lot better than the More three, four years ago. So I think that's gonna make it a lot easier. And then we have, like you know, kind of more dedicated, kind of like three printing solutions for, for, for, like the fill of innovation machines, much more robust kind of Workhorses as well available for people who want to invest. So I think it's gonna be it's never been easier to do out of it as well. So if you think the demand is gonna increase it's. You know. There's also a lot more tools out there to make it easier for you to do that.
Speaker 2:Well, and I did have a question for you, yours. You know We've talked to film innovations and such about. You know the high-flow stuff big nozzles, lots of plastic coming out. But I was just actually reading an article Recently about these, these more high speed printers printing with a point four, point six millimeter nozzle, and they're literally printing so fast that the strength is very similar To the high flow, because the layers actually never have a chance to cool, but you get this high detail Print. What? What are your thoughts on that? Oh, is it, is that just kind of a flash in the pan, or is that? Is that truly a thing?
Speaker 1:Well, depends, I mean, I think it could be, depends what for structural parts. I still think it's gonna be difficult because there is like a literally a wall that would need to be a little bit thicker, and to be thicker to a certain extent, you know, what really needs to happen in my mind is either is like more kind of Customization of nozzles based upon the material and based upon the application. There's nobody who's making like a pet G nozzle for Test sockets or something like that, you know so. So I think that really needs to happen. I need the software algorithm need to happen. Think about, or just not, how good the algorithm sounds, really expensive, but just like people need to optimize a little more on software to create these structures.
Speaker 1:Ultimately, now you know infill patterns and just basically, just the basically gcode is is made just to make everything kind of well, you know, nobody's really optimizing a ton to make the best kind of Vase mode kind of socket, the type, and that could really make a difference. So then then, once that happens, we will know if it's be a high-flow or more finer world. But also we need to know that the fine nozzle printer innovation is happening. Right now it's more on the kind of smaller systems I wouldn't be useful for a test socket at the moment and we need to get a bigger, kind of a new, bigger printer as well. That's gonna really, really, yeah, that's gonna change things. At the same time, we're seeing, you know the really in the crazy innovation like elegoo, which the company that is known for SLA systems or about polarization systems, like really inexpensive ones is released. I think it's a fifteen hundred dollar printer. That's like a meter by meter by meter or something. Right now I don't know if it works well or anything.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, but imagine just looking at that in the future. And then you've got a really huge, really slow or comparatively slow build wine printer, right, that's one you've got. The second one is a little bit smaller, but then a robust high-flow nozzle printer, right. And then you've got your. You're also a little bit smaller, but then a high detail printer. And then you've got your kind of bamboo labs for thousand dollars. You've got a really capable system, but it doesn't have the bill volume for the biggest parts, like also, but it will have, you know, we'll be able to print a lot of other parts, right. So those systems are gonna be competing with each other. And then you've always got your kind of two hundred to three hundred dollar clones, you know that's. And then the material extrusion world. So that's what shaping up to happen is that we're really seeing for the first time really a segmentation in the market. And so that way, like in this nozzle thing yeah, the high detail nozzle I know a ton of people are really excited about that.
Speaker 1:A ton of people are really excited about systems. They're trying to make systems that use the high flow nozzle in combination with the detail nozzle, which is, of course, it would be a beautiful kind of combination and that would be another way of doing it. So I know I personally don't know which one of these we're gonna see, but I do know we're gonna see increased segmentation, increased capability and really systems are gonna be a lot less finicky across line and especially with these really large cheap systems. Well, that could be something that to get in and, like two grand or something, could be something to kind of, you know, an entry-level thing for a lot of people, whereas a thousand dollars for a bamboo lab system, it's gonna be a super good price for a lot of people to have a capable system. But you know that test or test or check socket, it's not gonna be able to fit on that. But you can make a lot of other stuff.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's cool. And one more question. Our guest has been Graciously listening, but I think this one is a import one too. What do you say? What do you see happening in the powder bed fusion world? I mean, is it going to the as far as systems that are gonna become more affordable? You know, the affordable systems now have a very small build volume and and but and not necessarily great for prosthetics, but but do you see some movement there in the powder bed fusion, or not? Really?
Speaker 1:I think it's a difficult market. It's a difficult. There's a lot of no one. No client is a responsibility come up to me and say I Would like a part of a fusion system for 15k or 100k. Right now Form labs has proved before they could make markets and then it could. It really is as fuses really selling. So 1000 systems a year or something like that, and that is that is like you know, that is something that that is gonna move the market to a certain extent. We also know that the financing wise is not great for these companies. They really have a kind of a hump to overcome and and and they're not doing this hockey stick grow thing. So I don't think a lot of other people have. I will come to bring these systems. There's really entry-level systems like the 15 to 50k. A lot of New markets now. We do know that we matter got acquired by 3D systems. That's growing to a certain extent as well. So there is movement on that side of the market, one compared to like last ten years, let's say right.
Speaker 1:But the problem is a part of a fusion is amazing, lots of really detailed parts and and and and. You know, to have that really makes sense you need a quite a big system like a MGS system or P110 or something for males, and then the economics of it are really quite stellar because you're doing like a batch to batch type system when you're gonna take two thousand or something or five thousand or something, then put it in a Depowering station and resurface it and different station and then boom, you have all that money or all that part. So that's actually kind of advantageous. Now, if you look at the other systems, you're looking at a system that's quite small but at the same time is kind of a messy system around the office when compared to a material intrusion system. They're gonna be vacuuming a lot, it's gonna be annoying and you're not gonna probably need that yield. So there's kind of a little bit of a. You know there's nobody's really figured out what the right kind of go-to market is and also what the right price slash, performance slash thing criteria is to make those really entry-level systems really work.
Speaker 1:I think Formums is going to improve it. I think Formums is a formidable company. I think they'll get it right eventually and they really are known to locking down all the variables and making it easier for people to use these systems. They're coming up with a complete solution, as is 3D Systems on the entry-level front as well, as is some of the other firms working on that as well. It'll get better over the next couple of years. But for like, if you're looking at leasing or buying an MGS system, that's actually for several practices together that's actually semi-affordable and then you can actually really have a lot of yield and make a lot of money. So I don't think I think more of the innovation is going to be on that side.
Speaker 1:We respect more automation, more kind of batch-to-batch based tools and offerings, from part tracking to certain part identification to receiving for the larger systems and I would expect, like a far-soon and other kind of more entry-level systems to kind of come in between them and do better than they have. Indeed. Some of the far-soon, more entry-level systems, I still wouldn't recommend them to most people, but they have been making a lot more headway in the last two to three years than in the previous years in offering a more affordable solution to the market and that kind of like an alternative to the entry-level MGS and P110 systems they have For most people. I think it still makes the most sense to, if you want to prototype or make functional and used parts that don't have to be pretty.
Speaker 1:Get a material extrusion system If you want molds or you have to be super pretty or casting or something like that. Get a SLA printer, which are super affordable, super cheap right now, and then either save up for user service for for a P110 or an MGS or HP MGS system. For most other people. There's nothing out there that I really feel like you don't even have, like an entry-level MGS system, right? Or an entry-level kind of SLS or a part of a fusion system, right. You like love machines, you make machines. I don't have one either, right? That's just something. If, like super nerds like us like don't buy these things, you know, just because we feel we have to and I still think that the much larger, bigger system is a lot better economics at the moment.
Speaker 2:I think that's great insight and I mean it sounds like we kind of both land on the same thing is spend your money and time learning how to design for the systems, outsource where you need to, and then that's where you get the economies of scale is knowing how to design and then, once you have a business case for it, you make the decision then to pull the trigger on a machine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I totally agree and I think a lot of people overlook that part of that service. When you said you wanted to do like a service for your printer, I tried to talk you out of it right. I was like cheering you on. I was like don't do it, don't do it 100% so well.
Speaker 2:I'm super excited Jeff Solberg is with us today. He is a the founder of Jeff giving a hand. He is also a major advocate of people that have had some sort of partial hand or finger amputation. He is an ambassador for point designs. We've had Lebanon, we've had Chris on from point designs and now we've got Jeff on and we're going to make sure that Jeff's episode is more listened to than either of the other two, right, jeff?
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Okay, so so first off, Jeff, I'm thinking here that you're probably on the more the patient side of things, I'm sorry. So you should ask how did you get in touch with the prosthetics, or orthotics and prosthetics? I'm thinking that your initiation wasn't a happy one. Don't say no.
Speaker 3:So seven and a half years ago I was involved in an industrial accident where my glove got caught in the machine and it pulled the majority of three fingers off. And over the course of my journey I've had nine surgeries and at this stage I am a full three finger amputee. And I can remember laying in the hospital bed being the husband, the father, the breadwinner at the time, wondering okay, what is life and be like going forward? Is life over for me? And there just wasn't information out there. So with that, I have continually searched and I do peer support through several organizations amputee coalition and stuff and I'm just a constant learner and trying to share what I'm learning with everyone else. Because I call us finger partial hands the lost kids they're.
Speaker 1:The numbers are so skewed, no one knows for sure and so we've had a couple of people who were like teenagers or kids when they asked about, like you know, the self images, children going up, or that teen period. And for you, yeah, you're, like you said, you're already a husband, you're already thinking and you thought your life was over. Did you mean that you're worried about, like you know, can I be the breadwinner? Or did you really see yourself as like being less of a man, less of a human somehow? Or were you just worried about the economics of this whole thing and saying, oh my God, I could never have a job again?
Speaker 3:Well, first and foremost was the breadwinner side of things, but then also, I was 53 years old when I had my accident and so, yeah, what could I still do? And it's been an amazing journey. I've proven a lot of things and have gone on to do, set world records and competed in both physical activities and you know, just learn to live life, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:And and you know what was your life for your family, or kids and your wife, like, were they super supportive or did you kind of like want to push them away at times as well, because you were kind of like you found that kind of like a little bit too smothering maybe, or how, how? How are they in this?
Speaker 3:Because I think you know you do do this as a family, let's say right, but it does interfere with you being a family essentially, at the same time, yeah, well, there's many ups and downs and, you know, not taking anything away from any other type of limb loss, but our fingers are our number one used limb on our body, yet they're so small. Everyone is within our DNA kind of size dominant, so everyone looks at fingers as a small thing, yet us that are missing the fingers it's a very big thing, and so it's been a struggle and trying to educate everyone about that struggle. That's how I've, you know, got my voice and to help others get their voice. It's my ex-wife now. But you know, one day I took and I taped up three of her fingers and said, here, go about your day and see what it's like. And you know, she went five minutes and just looked at me and said I can't do this and rip the tape off and it's like, oh okay, I can't do that. My fingers are never coming back.
Speaker 1:And for you, was this like psychologically speaking? Was this something you wanted to overcome, or do you want to accept it? Or are you kind of like, or did you ignore it for a long time? You just like, oh yeah, I'll just keep on going and over what was your mechanism?
Speaker 3:Well, it's a mental struggle major for finger partial hands Because we do so much. I've tried to be as positive as possible but and you know, I have both a myoprostatic and a manual, but there's no touch sensation in the prosthesis and so you have to rely on other senses, sight being the most used one, and so I'm always looking at my amputation, so to speak. And so it. It's a lot of roller coaster up and down, and I advocate for mental health. I meet with a mental health counselor twice a month and I call them brain dump sessions where, you know, I just go in and talk about my struggles for the last couple of weeks and I've found that by doing that the ship is more steady. It's not going to the top and crashing. You know you are driving home and someone cuts you off and you just go postal on them and more even, killed. And again, I advocate for all to have that mental health.
Speaker 1:Okay, and so, andy, would you say something? That's something like the, let's say, you're in your hospital bed, right, and you're like you, you're at the later age. What is this Like? If you have like a plan like five things you should do, like one of them is going to be yeah, you should, you should, everyone should, see counseling, that's just like a thing to do. What are some other things you would suggest people do in that situation?
Speaker 3:Well, because of the mental stresses and stuff I advocate for, you know, get out, go for walks Majority. You know your legs still work, so don't give me the excuse you can't get out Early on. You know, as I was recovering, I was four, six weeks into my recovery and I was at the gym working out. You could only sit home for so long and watch so much TV or you're zoning out and majority of us, being trauma victims, deal with pain and if you're sitting around, I don't care how strong you are, your mind's a migrate to that pain center. So you got to offset that somehow. Get out, live life again, see what you can do. I mean, that's the whole realm of things. You know we're a reactive society, muscle memory, and that's part of the struggle. For 53 years I did things a certain way and so it's going to take me another 50 years to retrain my brain to do things differently.
Speaker 1:If you're in that situation, right then you know exercise always seems to be I think that's one thing that we hear from everyone is exercise is so important and take care of us mentally so important. When did you start talking to like the prosthetics thing? When did you start like talking about it? Was that something immediate on your end? Did you really like I need a prosthetic now, or did that come by the medical community? How did that happen?
Speaker 3:Well, within my situation, um, I had five, seven surgeries over eight months, and so I was continually going Up and down. I didn't get, so to speak, stabilized to the point of a prosthetic till about eight months in. Then I reached out, reached out to a couple organizations and stuff and settled on hangar clinics here locally and At that point went in.
Speaker 2:I talked to them, they gave me a couple of different options and we started the process then when you were looking for, uh, you know, say, a prosthetic place or something like that, did you have anybody kind of like what you're doing as far as mentoring or and and Advocating? Did you have anybody kind of speaking into your life at that time, or was it you were kind of on your own?
Speaker 3:at that point in time, literally, I was on my own. My hand surgeon really didn't have any information and he gave me a couple of names of you know, prosthetic companies to go talk to, but he was just like this isn't my world and, um, I didn't find a lot on the internet at that point in time. So, as I go forward, I use my own personal experiences to drive what I do in helping other individuals find stuff and kind of, let's say, with point designs. Um, we've grown together because literally they they Came on the market in january of 2017 and I met with hangar february, march of 2017 so I've grown up with them. Oh, wow, wow.
Speaker 2:So I mean, do you feel, as far as your situation specifically I mean I know you had then you had to advocate for yourself and such, and you said that there wasn't much information Out there and you're doing a lot to change that how would having access to that information, or what access would have made your journey a little bit easier? Do you feel? And, and what do we need to do to improve on that? Because it does sound like the hand surgeons, as talented as they may be, it sounds like there just needs to be some education on what, what happens life after surgery as well 100 on that.
Speaker 3:Both the hand surgeons um, well, all involved hand surgeons, hand therapists, insurance companies they all need to get educated because in my peer support I've heard so many stories. You know it's um how do I want to say this um kind of a Weird scenario that you know People don't realize that you have to have have a prescription to get the insurance company to pay for your prosthetic. And I hear stories you know, you got this good hand surgeon that's been doing surgeries for 20 years and they have to sign that script and they say well, there's nothing out there for you, so I'm not gonna sign the script Because they don't have the knowledge of what's out there. And then you know, on the insurance side of things, they Go oh, you got seven other fingers, why do you need those three?
Speaker 1:That's crazy and I we talked about this for like would it benefit? What do you think is? Is there a solution to this? Because there's always going to be different healthcare providers, different areas, always going to be this kind of cannibalization kind of thing going on with different areas, that that are encroaching on different areas or different experts, which maybe you could contradict each other or maybe you couldn't know each other. You know, we talked before about this idea of having, like one case manager for a patient or something like that. I mean, do you have any other ideas? Do you have any ideas of what would be like ideal solutions to this? Well, I think case managers.
Speaker 3:For individuals or specialized case managers is ideal idea to Get things going. You know, I again, I know workers comp case and it's Very frustrating. On my side my Company that I work for they're privately insured on workers comp. I've had three different management companies and I don't know how many case managers over the last seven and a half years. And you know, it seems like every time I Send in a bill or something, I got a new case manager and I spend, you know, a couple months trying to track down who I'm supposed to be in contact with and and um, advocating for all of this stuff.
Speaker 3:Well, my goal for 2024 is I didn't start posting a lot of videos of what my prosthesis has given back to me Simple little things. Um, you know, trying to zip up a coat In my situation, I have my index, my middle and ring finger are the amputated ones. I have my thumb and my pinky, so it's a stretch from one end of the hand to the other to Touch those together and then little find things like zippers. You know to try and hold on to it and manipulate it. Or Also, you know I love my meat and potatoes. Try holding on to a fork with just your thumb and pinky, or to cut if it is a steak knife that's.
Speaker 1:There are so many little Daily struggles that we just don't think about okay, and in that thing, you know, have you well, you know as a, but also you're older, right? So as in getting used to newer prostheses or getting used to a newer development, that's also more difficult, right? I mean, uh, is it more difficult now to learn? You have tips for people saying like how do you get yourself to? Really, you know, work this device better and better every time.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, wearing them you get more familiar. But again, muscle memory is still to this day. You know there's probably an 80% likelihood that your accidents happen to your dominant hand. So I still reach for doorknobs with my right hand and if it's, you know, a round doorknob, even with my prosthesis on it is a struggle if it's kind of tight. So that goes back to the mental struggle, the voices in our head. When are you going to learn to use the hand to open the door and so learning to overcome that muscle memory, the reaction?
Speaker 1:Okay, and then and you know for your own choice, you have several. What did you do? Was the prosthetic part, was that really important to you, or is it less important? Or or do you struggle for a long time? You said you mentioned before, but you have to look at this thing all day. You know, is that person, the looks of the thing, is it really important to you, or does it really? Would you really like it to be much more hand-like at this point?
Speaker 3:We're all different in that situation and I had a lady that early on I think we all are struggling with appearance and stuff and I've been going to the gym for a couple weeks and this very dear friend of mine came up to me one day and at that point in time I was my arm was in a sling wrapped up and everything, and I was guarded, kind of protect and everyone else's view of what I thought was very ugly and sick and gross, because I had they had to cut my forearm open to increase blood flow and I got skin grafts everywhere, I got some gnarly scars. And she comes up to me and she asks can I see it? And I kind of make the sarcastic off-the-cuff comment to her that I hope it doesn't gross her out. And I take an unwrapper, and she takes and she looks at it very intently for a period of time and then she looked me in the eyes and she goes you know it's not as bad as I thought it'd be, and at that point in time she made things better.
Speaker 3:I had been starting to build a wall protect and everyone else's view of things that I thought were ugly, and now I could go share it, so to speak and so now it has become my badge of honor and I have no problem showing everybody everything and I've overcome those things. But everyone is different. I hear stories of you know ladies struggle a lot more than men Because you know, especially if they go and get their nails done every couple of weeks and all of a sudden they only have nine, eight, seven, maybe five nails to get done, that's really a mental struggle for them.
Speaker 1:Okay, and if you talk about, like, if you could make your processes a little bit better, like some you know not magic here, not like, like you know, one-on-one functioning arm, brain powered, whatever magic, well, which we will get to eventually, I think, through engineering, but that is going to take some years yet and maybe you'll have a lot of money as well. What are some incremental improvements that you would really like? You know, the touch thing seems really important to you. Would you like to you know, to be able to you know, more emotion, more control, what's really important to you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, recently I was in New York's at a hand surgeons conference and the conference I was at before that I sat in on a presentation where they were just within my myoelectric. You got open and close and you choose different grip patterns as to which fingers open and close. And I turned to this individual behind me and I go. You know, what I want is to be able to, with my myo hand, move each finger independently. And I'm in New York and I sit in on this presentation by this surgeon now to Carolinas and they call it starfish and they move muscles around and take the myo hand and put sensors on each finger. And I met this individual that could move each finger on his myo prosthetic independently. And it was interesting because, as individuals that have all 10 fingers and stuff working with us, you kind of make your own assumptions of what we want and it's not necessarily actually what we want. And they said you know being able to do that. You know, unless you're you know playing the piano, playing the guitar or something like that, you really don't use your fingers independently that much. And in their process of talking with these individuals that had it and stuff and they go, yeah, I might only use that three times a year, but I want to have that option to do it when I want to do it or need to do it, and so don't. We need more communication both ways. You know, I can educate the doctors, the prosthetics and everything as much as they can educate me, just like.
Speaker 3:So my latest 3D printed frame I got a year ago and it's my fourth frame of which. Okay, I went in what six years ago, now, six and a half years ago, to get fitted the first time, and we do the impression. They make up the prosthesis and they go put it on and they go. Well, how's it feel? Well, it's heavy. How's it supposed to feel? You know, we don't know.
Speaker 3:And over time each one has gotten better and this 3D printed prosthesis is the ultimate in my eyes. It feels so good. Before it, I looked at my prosthetic as being a tool to make my life better. This last year, this has become an extension of my body. I before I might have worn it for a few hours and then have to take breaks. I take and put on my prosthesis at 4.30 in the morning and I'll wear it till 10 o'clock at night. I mountain bike, I kayak, I do all types of different activities. I'm still working the job I did and I'm pulling pumps and doing all types of activities and it's just amazing what the 3D has given to me.
Speaker 2:So on your journey, you know you've obviously made your journey known about point designs and such, and it sounds like it's been quite the collaboration between Hanger and Point. You know the clinical and the manufacturing side of things. What are some suggestions that you have for somebody looking for a prosthetist that's in your situation Because, like you said, there's very much an underserved population and I would say that a lot of people don't have that kind of experience with partial hands. What do you look for?
Speaker 3:Well, yes, you need to find someone that specializes or has done several partial hands. Now, with that being said, point design is creating a system that helps more. That haven't. But if you're just going not through point, so to speak, to begin with, you need to find someone. The fingers are so different than legs and you know you had Matt on last year now that he specializes in going through your training. You know, in school you only get maybe 10% of your training is in fingers partial hands and they're so different. Every one of us is different. We might have part of our fingers still, and so you got to find the individual that has done it.
Speaker 3:I've heard too many horror stories of I'll talk to an individual, tell him what's available and stuff, and they run to the first guy down the street and he sees him coming through the door and he's just like, oh, all right, I get a partial here and he starts working with them and he tries to sell them on. You know the latest and greatest cats be out, and then everything falls apart, and it falls apart in many different ways Coding we know that's a nightmare and everything. But on the prosthetic side of things, we need to let eagles go to the wayside and ask questions, reach out to individuals like Matt, chris and stuff that do the partial hands. Ask questions, and this goes both upper and lower talking. You know, 3d printing is still kind of an infancy on the prosthetic side of things, and I've heard horror stories with amputees that you know their guy was trying to learn 3D printing and he kept making sockets for them that sucked.
Speaker 3:And if things don't feel good or fit, you're not aware it. I mean. One example that I use that I think everyone can relate to is you know you're walking around and you get something in your shoe and it feels like a boulder and you sit down and you take your shoe off and it's a grain of sand. And that's what we, the prosthets, need to take the time and not rush things. I know individuals that their first prosthetic was amazing and then they go for the second time and whatever the circumstances were the time frame, whatever they got rushed and their second prosthetic is lousy, doesn't fit good, and so we need to take the time to make sure it's right and humble ourselves to ask the questions and reach out. Let our egos go to the wayside.
Speaker 1:One thing that's really interesting to me, like how much research do you do? I mean, you know what I mean. Do you just show up and be like, okay, help me, you know? Is it a really passive way? We've talked to some people that are patients that really go really deep technically, spend a lot of time with it, and for them I think it's a bit healing. That's healing in and of itself as well. If you would just recommend somebody with partial hand or something like that, how much time would you spend researching these topics like researching how to use the hand, researching how to find a good prosthetic? Is that a daily thing for you, or is this a big spurt at the beginning? What kind of thing would it feel?
Speaker 3:Well, I live and breathe it myself. But on the new patient side of things, they need to reach out, they need to check things out. We're all totally different. You know, I am physical manual labor, so my point digits are what I use most of the time. If I was working in an office type atmosphere I might wear my mile more, and so there's. And then within the partial fingers you got your naked prosthetics and stuff. So they need to research a lot themselves, but then have a list of questions to ask the prosthetists and understand what the limitations are in all of them, because I don't care if you're upper or lower.
Speaker 1:Nothing replaces original equipment, and what was it like for you to find employment again without a really difficult journey? Would you find it difficult to show up to the interview, if you will, because it won't people fall, things like that.
Speaker 3:Well, I was blessed. I still work for the company that I was working for at the time of my accident. But it is again a mental struggle. Anyone with challenges struggled with feeling lesser than before and it goes back to the stories we have in our heads. So I think there's good companies out there and bad companies also, because I've heard horror stories that you know individual has an accident and the company says, well, you're no good to me and cut them loose right then and that just builds on to their negative thoughts of not being good or whole and so it sit downwards viral. So that's part of my advocacy is to educate that we can still do stuff. We can. We still have a head, you know, a brain, that we might have to change our profession and stuff, but they're still. We're still very productive. I mean, look at individuals in wheelchairs and stuff and amazing things that they do. You know with just you know, in a clinician or office type atmosphere.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree, I think that's wonderful. And the other thing, I think you know what I would find I often the best advice I've ever gotten, like on the psychological front, is to be kinder to yourself, right, like a lot of people. For example, if you're late for work or something, you'd be like, blame yourself. Oh God, I don't believe you missed this and you're late for the meeting and you're so stupid. But if a colleague of yours are late, you're like, oh well, john's a bit late, it's fine, you know. So a lot of people could take this advice of being kinder to oneself and imagine your friend to oneself and say, okay, well, you know you do take responsibility for being late, but you know you probably shouldn't shout at yourself mentally as much as you do.
Speaker 1:But to me, the whole idea about this, what would be really tough for me personally, the way I'm wired, would be this whole thing. I would always blame myself for this accident. I would always be like, oh, if you just had that glove like you know, one second later, if you would have just paid more attention, did you have a lot of that as well? That you kind of really like, oh, if you weren't, you know you could have done better, or that would be for me. If I'm trying to think about your situation, that would be really tough for me. I would just replay that over in my mind over and over again and just blame myself every single time.
Speaker 3:Oh, yes, and that was you know again so early on. I advocate, for, you know, a good hand surgeon, good hand therapist, and that's a specialized field there too. Trauma psychologist you know, I met with a trauma psychologist for a year, every week, and he taught me to be able to tell my story but also to not beat myself up over things. It's still a give and take and that's with everything I mean within everyone's world. How many times do you, you know, have a fight with husband and wife, significant other, and you don't sleep good and you get up and you go into work and you know you're a little tired and the first person comes up to you and they go good morning, how's things going, and you just kind of bite your tongue a little bit and you go, oh, all's good and go about your day, but you're sitting there struggling. We need to have more empathy for each other and we need to be able to voice our struggles too.
Speaker 1:Okay, and I think that's really really very, very sound advice and a really nice way to really articulate this and in a very positive way, let's say and then and another thing, is like at work. Did you have, you said, the manual labor, the type of job? So you're like a machine operator. So what kind of job do you have? And how did that change? The prosthetic you wear for work, did you get like a really specialized one or was it kind of more a general one you learned to use for your work?
Speaker 3:So I know machinists for an oil refinery and I wear my point designs prosthetic at work for the most part. You know it's very robust, 3d printed titanium fingers that are capable of lifting 150 pounds per finger. And my big struggle was and again this is part of my mental struggle is I have to wear gloves, part of my personal protective equipment At work, and before the 3D printed frame, a year ago, I had a fabricated carbon fabricated, and to get gloves that would go over that frame was my worst nightmare. I've gone to glove manufacturers. I've used shoe repair individuals and they would say, yeah, we can do it, and I'd take a dozen of them to do and I'd go pick them up a month later and they'd more or less tell me, yeah, this is the bigger pain in the butt than we anticipated.
Speaker 3:You know, don't come back type thing. I've never had two individuals or companies do a set of gloves for me two times in a row and everything had to be modified. Then I get this frame. A year ago, and I think his second day I had it, I walked into a Walmart, walked to the glove aisle and I pulled a pair of gloves off the shelf and literally put the glove on and at that point in time I started crying because that was, you know, a big hurdle and struggle within my world. That just became a norm again. I could go to the store and buy a pair of gloves, just like everyone else.
Speaker 1:No, this is wonderful. I love this idea. This is something that's super specific to you, but of course you wear them your whole working life, so this is super important. Of course it makes sense, but I can imagine that a lot of designers in the in-class maybe you don't consider something like that they get. For anyone working in a kind of factory floor kind of environment. The glove is something you have that every day. Gloves on their shoes, maybe your glasses you probably have glasses as well. That's stuff you have in your head all the time and it's not optional and everyone has them, so I could really really imagine that being okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like I said, I literally started crying that day.
Speaker 1:So imagine I have a similar kind of event happening to me like how do I get in touch with you? How can you help me? How are your advocacy and the stuff you do help me? How do you want to get in touch with people like yourself a century?
Speaker 3:So I am on most every social media platform out there Jeff Solberg or Jeff Giving a Hand and I also have my foundation, jeffgivingahandorg, where I stay in my lane, so to speak, and I've become the voice for the finger partial hand community and I still. I know a lot about other things and I can guide people to other areas, but if it's finger partial hands reach out to me and I have enough connections that I can help individuals find the best person in their area. And the sad thing on the finger partial hand world is there are 45,000 finger amputations a year on average. Of that 45,000, less than 5% get a prosthetic because the majority are denied by insurance companies. So as I build the foundation, our focus is to change that and to try and help individuals get prosthetics in those denied situations. So I also am part of advocacy organizations where we will try and go to bat for the individuals.
Speaker 1:That sounds really wonderful, jeff. It sounds like a really noble kind of thing to be doing and really helpful, and then thank you so much for that and thank you so much for being with us today.
Speaker 3:Thank you for having me on. You know I do it all because I live this struggle every day and I've been very blessed in having two different prosthetics, and so knowing what my struggles are is why I give back to the individuals like I do, trying to make the world a better place, and thank you so much for that, jeff.
Speaker 1:And thank you for being here today on the show again, Brett. Oh, this has been great.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Jeff so much for your insight and also your advocacy for really the whole limb difference community, but also for the community, but also for 3D printing. I mean, we didn't get much into it. You definitely foreshadowed quite a bit, but it sounds like the 3D printing side of things not only from finding gloves that fit but also comfort has changed the way that you interact with your prosthesis.
Speaker 3:It has 100%, and watch out. I'll be reaching out to you, brent, to have you speak on the 3D side of things, to help educate more to individuals looking to navigate this world. We're in.
Speaker 2:All right, that's awesome. Look forward to it.
Speaker 1:All right, and thank you very much for listening to us today. This is another episode of the prosthetics and orthotics podcast with Brent Wright and Joris Fields. You have a wonderful day.