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The Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast
The Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast is a deep dive into what 3D printing and Additive Manufacturing mean for prosthetics and orthotics. We’re Brent and Joris both passionate about 3D printing and Additive Manufacturing. We’re on a journey together to explore the digitization of prostheses and orthoses together. Join us! Have a question, suggestion or guest for us? Reach out. Or have a listen to the podcast here. The Prosthetic and Orthotic field is experiencing a revolution where manufacturing is being digitized. 3D scanning, CAD software, machine learning, automation software, apps, the internet, new materials and Additive Manufacturing are all impactful in and of themselves. These developments are now, in concert, collectively reshaping orthotics and prosthetics right now. We want to be on the cutting edge of these developments and understand them as they happen. We’ve decided to do a podcast to learn, understand and explore the revolution in prosthetics and orthotics.
The Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast
How FDM Material Innovation is Transforming Prosthetics with Ruud Rouleaux
Ruud Rouleaux, founder of ColorFabb, shares the evolution of 3D printing materials from early PLA filaments to revolutionary foaming technology that's changing prosthetic and orthotic care. His journey from plastics engineer to materials innovator reveals how focusing on functional materials rather than competing on price has positioned ColorFabb as a leader in the field.
• Origins of ColorFabb in 2010 when the 3D printing market was just emerging
• Development of wood-filled PLA that sparked interest in composite materials
• Introduction of VarioShore foaming technology in 2016 for lightweight, comfortable devices
• Creating skin-tone matched materials that can be fine-tuned by adjusting printing temperature
• Obtaining compliance certifications for direct skin contact applications
• Integration with advanced software like implicit modeling for better textures and geometries
• Future developments including induction nozzles and better flow control
• How FDM printing with the right materials sometimes outperforms more complex technologies
• The shift toward data-driven approaches in orthotics while maintaining clinical expertise
Special Thanks to Structure for sponsoring this episode.
Welcome to Season 10 of the Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast. This is where we chat with experts in the field, patients who use these devices, physical therapists and the vendors who make it all happen. Our goal To share stories, tips and insights that ultimately help our patients get the best possible outcomes. Tune in and join the conversation. We are thrilled you are here and hope it is the highlight of your day.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, my name is Joris Peebles and this is another edition of the Prosthetics and Orthotics Podcast with Brent Wright. How are you doing, brent?
Speaker 1:Hey Joris, I'm doing well. I'm super excited about today's guest. But before we get there, I will tell you sometimes I wish I would have taken your advice and be like Brent. Why are you buying machines?
Speaker 2:Dude, I tried to talk you out of it, man. You were like so gung-ho.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, man, it's knucklehead me, you know. We've been trying to get the SLS stuff up and going and that stuff is wild man. There is so many parameters that you don't even realize. When it comes to the powder bed fusion stuff and I think that's one of the interesting things you have the SLS snobs that are like, hey, I've got all the parameters, I can tune all these knobs. And then you've got the HP guys that are like, hey, I just have to throw my print in and it just comes out and the powder handling is done for you and all that.
Speaker 1:It's definitely been an interesting journey. I think it's going to be worth it. Some of the parts that we're getting off of it are amazing, but it is. It's a journey nonetheless. And it's it's a journey.
Speaker 1:That man, you know, you definitely want to talk to somebody that's gone before you if you're considering a machine and that's any machine FDM, sls, multi-jet fusion, whatever it is and have the person tell it and say, hey, give me the good, bad and ugly, because going in with your eyes wide open I think is important, because not only are you going to have money involved, but it's time, energy and that sort of thing, but it's time, energy and that sort of thing. And so all that to say, I'm not opposed to having an SLS machine in, I'm just saying it's a lot of work. I think it's going to be worth it and we more than likely are not interested in running a fleet of these and we'll be contract manufacturing most of this stuff. But I think for us having it internal is a good thing because we know what we want and then also so we can do quick turn parts and that sort of thing go ahead let me have it.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no. I think one thing, but one thing I think I think you're being you're being very realistic, I think, but I think one thing I think we need to know is that you're also using quite a very niche material. You're one of the only people in the world running this PK material, so you know it would be a little bit different if you're doing like Arkemar or Volnik PA-12, you know what I mean doing a lot of things that a lot of other people are doing. So I think you are kind of putting. You know it's not just SLS that's hard, but you're putting yourself out there by being the only shop in PK black material, which I think is going to give you a distinct advantage but also could be making it. You know there's less of a community around there and less of a bunch of people that know everything or have made those mistakes before you. So I think you might. That's also a difficult thing, right?
Speaker 1:Well, and I think that's a good point, yoris and I mean I'm serious, I'd love to hear your feedback Like this idea of the community. You know stuff that to that. But on the flip side of that is we've just seen the performance of the PK5000 for powder bed fusion so amazing and excel all the characteristics of the normal stuff, the PA11, pa12. Specifically for prosthetics, it just exceeds it. It's not that PA11 and 12 can't be used for the prostheses. It it's not that pa 11 and 12 can't be used for the prostheses. It's. Now that we've seen this, it's like can we really go back? And so that's that's where we're at see, that's why it was good.
Speaker 2:So, so, perseverance, I think my advice and I think, yeah, you know it'd be hard and, uh, it is going to be hard, but I think at one point it'll stabilize a little bit more and you'll, it'll become much more you know and you'll just be the experts of this stuff. So I think that's a distinct advantage for you guys.
Speaker 1:Hey all before we get to our guests, I wanted to introduce our sponsor for this episode, and that sponsor is Structure.
Speaker 1:You can find them at structureio, and one of the reasons why I love having them as a sponsor is we believe scanning is foundational and can be done with excellence at a budget that you can afford, and so, whether you use just their software or an attachment like the Structure Sensor 3 to attach to your iOS device, it is a great option to get that foundational scan, and sometimes people will ask, hey, why would you do something separate than, say, just the phone scanner? And the reality is there's a lot of reasons for it, but the main reason is is that the iOS software or firmware changes quite frequently, and with that, so does the scanning parameters, and this is why it's so important to have an independent device that goes to your iOS device that is calibrated specifically for what we do. So I encourage you to go out, check them out, structureio, check out their Structure Sensor 3 and a myriad of apps that go along with that, and let's pick up with yours.
Speaker 2:Who's on the show today, man?
Speaker 1:Well, I tried to surprise you but, boy, that didn't work. So we have an industry veteran, I would say, rude Rouleau. I've actually known Rude for a long time We've never met in person, but we text every now and then and just a big fan of what he does. One of the things and we talk about this a lot he is the one that started ColorFab back in the day and then created this foaming material called VarioShore, which works very well not only for foot orthoses but then flexible interfaces and that sort of thing, and so, depending on how much heat you put in your settings, you can control the overall density. So, like, for, say, a one kilogram spool and I don't think they sell them as one kilogram spools, but let's just, for instance, you know we use a 50% man the name is escaping me but essentially you're getting two for one, so you get the same amount of volume, but because it's foaming, you get more out of it. And then you get this very interesting material that's very lightweight, cushiony, and patients love it and get this, and Rude will appreciate this.
Speaker 1:We have patients that we've put into like multi-jet fusion with all our fancy lattice stuff, and then we've also put them into the ColorFab flexible inner and they're like we like that stuff better and so in some ways, it. I know that creating that formulation wasn't a simple thing, but FDM, compared to some of the stuff that we have to go through with the powder bed, is, I would say, less complex. But to be able to get the results with FDM for prosthetics is really exciting, and it's really exciting for something that you and I have a heart for, and that's the developing world as well, in creating access this way. So I'm excited about diving into some of the history he's right in the middle of it of not only having this company, colorfab, but then talking about some sustainable materials, and so I'll be really curious kind of where we jump off.
Speaker 2:Cool man. Hey Ruud, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3:Hey guys, hey yours, hey, brent. Nice to be here. Thanks for inviting me. It's quite an honor, and thank you for the kind words and the introduction.
Speaker 2:So, ruud, how did you get started with 3D printing? Did you just see the technology comp in the Netherlands? How did you get started with 3D printing? Did you just see the technology comp in the Netherlands.
Speaker 3:Did you decide to jump in? It's a little bit more complicated than that. So I have a background in plastics engineering. Essentially, when I came out of university I started working with Pro Engineer. That's a CAD package, I think it's called different right now but part of my job was also to create prototypes, typically going to materialize, to get an SLS or SLA model Back in the days I'm talking about early 2000, 2001. So that was actually my first encounter with 3D prototyping and I loved it, but it was quite unaffordable at that time, not even desktop, of course.
Speaker 3:So following that career in mold making, I got kind of involved in colors and compounding and new materials etc as a sales engineer, as a sales rep selling colors, master batch, and that's how I first got involved with PLA 2004, the early days of NatureWorks.
Speaker 3:Pla 2004, the early days of NatureWorks making colors, making formulations, and it was the kind of new sustainable material out there. So roughly 20 years back, if I recall, was when NatureWorks started making traction in this market, not knowing, of course, what may have to come, what was laying ahead. So after six years of working with PLA, 3d printing kind of became a big thing out of the wrap, wrap era, of course, recalling the early days of, of making printers together with Ultimaker, etc. And, and suddenly somebody popped the question can you make filament out of PLA? Well, I said of, I know a thing or two about PLA with my background in colors, so why not? So we're talking about 2010 here, when the first ideas were born, and about one year later there was the soft launch, I have to say, of ColorFab acquiring a line and making first filaments.
Speaker 2:So that's about 15 years back right now and the funny thing is that in the netherlands around the same time I think also thanks to eric, the one of the founders of ultimakers on tv a lot of critical mass erupting around this, this development, the netherlands, ultimaker and stuff like this a bunch of people, like four or five companies, started doing this and were ultimately quite successful, to varying degrees, and you guys are very, been very successful over the years. Why have you been successful? I mean, what's the key to your success in this market? That no one really knew what they were doing. Right, in the beginning it was like you didn't know what you could sell it for. You didn't know who was buying, you didn't know what they were making it for, you didn't know if they wanted like a hundred colors or they wanted it to be cheap. And then, all of a sudden, you guys are successful. So what do you think are the key things to your success?
Speaker 3:yeah, great question. So, going back again 15 years, I think the technology point and the value promise at that time were actually sparking a lot of interest in this. Well, let's say, in this region, in the netherlands, of course, uh, you had to start up ultimaker here, and it was around the time when I bought my first printer. It was a kit, a wooden kit, plywood. You had to mount it yourself and get it to run, which was very difficult for a non, let's say, mechatronics engineer like I am. So I have a materials background and started I wanted to get this thing to run, with the perception, with the idea this is going to change the world radically, right? So in the future, it's just a click on the button and this thing will print as anything. So that was my expectation. Boy, was I wrong. So I got this printer back to Ultimaker and asked the question let's get this to work? Okay? So I learned a thing or two and then I actually had the vision okay, at one point in time this value promise might get there.
Speaker 3:So we need to be innovative. How can we functionalize, let's say, our material sciences to deliver our part of this value promise? And that's exactly what ColorFab is about delivering functional materials, specific colors in order to enable, let's say, 3d printing as a production method. So this is our core principle, those are our core company values. So being, let's say, passionate about 3D printing, being curious about what kind of functionality are we going to deliver, and be courageous, keep going, keep going. I mean failures are, let's say, stepping stones to new successes. So this intrinsic drive to develop new functional materials, that's our key success factor.
Speaker 2:And then I think so. So one of the most amazing things I think you guys ever did is this this color on demand stuff which I still I know you can do it but I still don't understand how, economically speaking, you can do it. But but that to me also is a secret, because I I don't think I've worked for filler extrusion companies and materials makers and stuff the idea of just being able to really like, from one spool or a few spools being able to to make a custom color, it's just, it's an operational nightmare. You have to purge the machine, you have to you know you track this thing, you have to put it somewhere, make a label, make all that work. So to me that is also a secret where I'm thinking that not a lot of other companies could have done that. And the fact that you guys have been doing this for so long now it kind of means there is like an operational excellence thing going on in the background there, right, Kind of.
Speaker 3:So the idea is, of course, not new. It's like going into your hardware store or your paint shop you select a color and the color mixer makes it on site. Our idea is not that different. So, yeah, having a color's background. Of course, I have been in many color compounding and color master batch manufacturing facilities. You pick up some ideas here and there, right.
Speaker 3:So back in 2016, we got a grant that allowed us to develop the building blocks that we need for PLA color and demands it's in our name color and digital fabrication. That was the original idea. In the future it's going to happen. So custom colors in any volume is part of a value promise. So the idea materialized in 2016 and has been, let's say, developed over and over again over the last eight years, and now we have reached a point where we're becoming not very efficient. This means, from an initial start point to the demand we're seeing right now needs, a scale up, needs, an investment, et cetera. So we're turning this idea around again to follow up with the market demand. But the original concept of, let's say, developing building blocks that we can mix on site to make as less as 750 grams as your, as your moq it's still happening every day and it's growing every day. So yeah, it's.
Speaker 2:I would say this is one of the core technologies that allowed colofab to be where we are right now yeah, because it was a bit crazy that at one point, like I think it was like two or like three of the top five filament makers in the world were in the netherlands and it just doesn't make any sense because we don't have that much of a plastics industry. You know a little bit, but compared to the world it's like it should be. It should have been somewhere else, right, and it was really really kind of crazy. And and another thing I think I think when, when really people started to really notice you guys, well, first it first it was with, I think maybe that's first, I don't remember it was all these brass-filled materials and stuff like that, right, yeah, that was a great time.
Speaker 3:We officially entered the market in 2013. I remember it well. It was the London 3D print show. The whole world was kind of new to us. I think, like two or three or four brands entering the filament space. So this is when? Was that October 2013-ish, I'm not sure.
Speaker 3:Anyway, there we are with two wooden Ultimakers on this 3D printing event and we brought a first trial from a wood-filled material. So we literally launched that as wood fill. But those were the first three or four spools that were printing there. So it's a material composite, it's a PLA with dust in there. But the experience was quite different. So people actually stopping at a booth asking hey, I smell wood burning here. What's going on? Are you guys printing with wood?
Speaker 3:And that idea sparked a whole range of innovations, like material composites, not only with wood but with different fillers, with cork, we had bamboo, and then one of our suppliers said, hey, you got to try this with bronze. We were making bronze composites, nylon bronze composites for making bearings, dry bearings. I said, okay, so if we switch the nylon component to PLA, would that be possible? Yeah, let's try that.
Speaker 3:Together with some suppliers, we checked if we could print PLA with a concentration of bronze particles in there. So if you print this, you guys I'm sure you guys have seen it it has like a dull brownish finish and it's non-reflective because really the bronze particles they are perfect round spheres so they are not reflecting any light. So you have to polish it and that's where the fun factor comes in. So the bronze fill actually added a new dimension to 3D printing, because some post-processing is required, but ultimately you can get the gloss back and even the material can start to corrode, creating a patina. So this opened up a whole new range of possibilities in desktop 3D printing. And yeah, those are the innovations that actually are a lot of fun but also create a high amount of value, of course, in 3D printing.
Speaker 1:Speaking of the value side of things, I mean I know you and I have talked about that and that I think ColorFab has really done a great thing about staying in the filaments that do provide value. So you've got your colors and then you've got some of the foaming stuff. You have some of your exotic filaments, but can you share just a little bit about why that came to be and then how that has shaped what you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure. So you have to dive a little bit into the supply chain of typical plastics manufacturing. So we have raw material suppliers, additive suppliers, color suppliers, and we have compounders that make specific formulations that are used in, for example, injection, molding, extrusion, sheet packaging you name it. There's a whole industry out there. So, based on what already has been done, there is an enormous range of possible material combinations that might be suitable for desktop 3D printing in filament shape. So it's our fun factor to explore what's out there and how can we bring this to good use in desktop 3D printing. I mean, PLA is obvious. Pla is a very versatile material, with its pros and with its cons. But looking at different materials as well, how can we create value? That's always the key question. So this is the space where we operate. We're not cheap. We have a lot of overhead, so we have to deliver sufficient functionality and added value in order to grow sustainably.
Speaker 3:This led to a really good cooperation in 2015 with the Eastman Chemical Company. You might recall that we developed some copolyesters Engine. You might recall that we developed some copolyesters Engine. That's engine that's Colofab HD, which is based on Eastman Triton technology. So that was a great partnership because we saw, next to PLA, lots of new materials that were amorphous, that have higher temperature resistance, good printability, etc.
Speaker 3:So Eastman kind of paved the way for us into the functional space and they have been very cooperative and this also led to some carbon fiber composites or CF20 materials, the high performance strength materials, and from there we actually explored a lot of combinations and one of the, let's say, biggest successes, starting from 2016, has indeed been the lightweight materials, where we use a technology that allows, let's say, the material to foam, to expand right after exiting the nozzle. And this again a new dimension into the FDM, FFF, pre-printing space that you can, let's say, reduce your density, reduce your material usage and completely change the outlook, the perception, surface appearance, haptics, et cetera. And I mean the innovation dates back to 2016, but is still growing. So imagine, let's say, the kind of impact that had and we're really proud of that, of course in the 3D printing space. So this is an original Colofab innovation that is going very strong today.
Speaker 2:And the exciting thing about this is because, like, nozzles are actually kind of dumb right, as in the time to warm them up and heat them and cool them down it's actually quite considerable and there's residual heat and it's actually very difficult to go, you know, from 218 to 220 in a kind of organized way. So if nozzles would get smarter right and a lot of people have been looking at doing this if nozzles would get much more responsive, you could do even more with this kind of material right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's correct, joris. So we're seeing some very exciting innovations coming our way, coming into FFF next year. I mean, we have already talked about induction nozzles. We've seen one brand, we've seen two brands doing this. I think it's going to be a standard feature on a lot of desktop 3D printers the coming years, because it allows your material performance to change dramatically in terms of control, and this also brings us, let's say, to a different topic in terms of data. If your printer can control a lot of, let's say, data very accurately in terms of g-code, changing speed, output flow, temperature, etc. Imagine where what this will bring fdm 3d printing in in the years coming in terms of functionality and and appearance of final parts. I believe this is, this is truly exciting and this stuff is happening right now yeah, I totally agree.
Speaker 2:I think if you look at something like flow control, for example, where you can do much more in determining flow and determining flow at a certain point and and linking that to certain geometry, and if we just look at what some of the slicers are doing, what bamboo is doing and stuff like that on, on just that, that control, that nozzle, and the control of your stepper motor at a certain speed, at a certain point, it's of course, super exciting to imagine you know much more digital control over your output and a much more coherent kind of extrusion, extrusion, feeding, extrusion setup than we have now.
Speaker 2:And then, yeah, you throw in something like induction nozzles, something like that, which is a little more difficult to than it seems to do in real life, of course, but I throw in something like induction nozzles, something like that, which is a little more difficult than it seems to do in real life, of course, but you throw in something like that and you can have much more of a digital process. Rather than squeezing out a toothpaste tube without really understanding when, what pressure happens and what wall slip effects and what fluidity and all that, you could really make it a much, much more controlled process, much more discrete process.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, and I think we're just scratching the surface here, guys. I mean, there are so many things heading away like AI and different user interfaces, etc. So I have seen brand tinkering around and playing with anthropology and top software package field modeling it's. It's super interesting what this will bring to the FDM space. I'm using it myself. I have one license. It's.
Speaker 3:It takes a lot of time, but let's say, latticing also in FDM surface texturing, it's just off the scale, next level cool to add certain surface textures also to your, for example, various short TPU product. We have seen this in shoes. We have seen this in orthotics. I'm a big cyclist fan myself. We have, let's say, been engaged in some new developments with cycling accessories like bike ribbon. We are working on saddles. We have a guy from Belgium working on top tube bags. One piece shoe covers, whatever. So in sports and leisure is also, let's say, there is a big opportunity for FDM 3D printing in combination with functional materials and, let's say, the enhanced capacity of future 3D printers and software and G-code. If you combine all these, we're going to see fantastic products.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's great that you point out textures, because I think there's such huge. You mentioned haptics before. You can make something much more expensive feeling or much more interesting or work much better. Think about a tool and just wear on that surface. You want to put certain cues or certain things to make that tool be easier to use or better to use, in some way wick away sweat. There's so much you can do with textures.
Speaker 2:I think one other thing if we're looking at this thing is on the implicit modeling, plus more control over your G-code generally, plus more control over the machines, plus input shaping, more advanced input shaping. I guess that takes into account a lot of the kinematics, a lot of the stuff on the machine, plus more understanding of what goes on on the nozzle Right, and then better heating and better, maybe, pressure control. I think is the one thing we're really missing. That are more more accurate pressure control on that and sensors, knowing these kinds of things. If you look at all that together, I think you know the one of the things that really is missing as well.
Speaker 2:If things that really is missing as well if you're looking at this functional shapes and functional materials, making functional end-use parts. It's kind of like that if we look at infill. Infill has kind of been like it's this dumb thing we come up with at one point and it's it happens to be a honeycomb, because that seems really efficient, you know. But there should just be really many more, many more abilities to make infill a certain width, a certain height, a certain shape, to to really get really really specific properties out of it yeah, I can give you a nice example there.
Speaker 3:I was uh recently in spain and valencia. I know you know quite well there. I was talking to a uh to a company called Neofarm, nikola Jut, and he lives there. He is also active in the orthotic space. He discussed a workflow he has been working on on modifying G-code in order to, let's say, assign specific densities in infill. To me it was next level. It took me a while to get at how we did it, but it's quite innovative. Post-processing G-code, adding certain scripts there also dramatically can change the level of, let's say, durometers, densities, variations in one part. So it's all data-driven guys. This is definitely going to happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, super cool. So tell us, talk to us a little bit specifically for for orthodox and stuff like that. I think, yeah, the big thing brett mentioned already is very sure there, but you've also got specific, like very sure for prosthetics right with like like kind of like colors and stuff like that yeah, that's something that was already done during the early days of very sure.
Speaker 3:So we started this development in uh in in early 2018 and one of the first question we got hey, we would like to see a portfolio of different skin type colors, and one of the cool feature was so if you look at the filament which is unfoamed, it can be a very brilliant color. If, if the material starts to foam uh, depending on your temperature that you set, you get different skin tones. So if you uh I don't know the exact name if you print a temperature tower, you can basically mimic already a lot of skin tones. So that was the idea behind that. So we start up with with four or five basic skin tone colors from, let's say we call it, medium pink to dark brown Anything between there. You can actually set yourself by defining the temperatures. Imagine how a, let's say, a product can benefit from that by, let's say, arranging or, let's say, tweaking the best possible color there. And I mean we only did five colors. In the future, I guess we can, let's say, pinpoint even better according to a reference.
Speaker 2:So that's also a step that we're investing in in 2025 to do more color matching, matching and very sure yeah, I love this so much because it is really cool and I think you can imagine so many people like that who have not had a device the color that has been close to their skin tone or something like that, and that would be really amazing if you guys could get like most people's spin tones or even like everybody or nearly everybody. That would be really cool okay, good to hear we can do that okay.
Speaker 2:And then and then another thing I think if we're looking at these materials, I mean I think, mean I think the foaming type products are kind of really exciting. Then you've also got lightweight products. Are there other ones you would consider especially exciting for the orthotics and prosthetics world?
Speaker 3:let's say, yeah, I mean maybe a side note here I'm also involved in a company called Podo Printer. They produce a belt printer software material combination which is also based on VarioShore. There we have recognized some different opportunities, for example supplements and hard shells. Okay, so I guess in the US market you will see more hard shells materials. So also there we are looking into types of various shore that have a harder starting geometry to start from. So currently our starting durometer is sure for, let's say, those hard shears material. We see also opportunity to make, let's say, something in the short D, higher range or combined with certain fillers, mineral fillers or fiber fillers, et cetera. So combining that functionality is something that we're looking at and also of course, like we showed on the form that the lower durometer, so below shore 80, this is typically where we would enter the shoe domain, not only focusing on shoes but also on medical flip-flops or medical slippers et cetera. That's also happening with with some of our customers right now.
Speaker 2:And are you, like I think, of the whole prosthetics thing? I mean, are you the most bullish about like orthotics, insoles, that kind of thing, or just the whole, the whole business of doing this?
Speaker 3:A good question. So, circling back to Brent, I was intrigued by his work on, let's say, liners and sockets, so that's a space that's definitely developing. Our personal experience over the last two years is that the brand name very assured has kind of become a benchmark in the insoles manufacturing industry replacing EVA foam, replacing milling, et cetera. So we see the biggest momentum there, but not necessarily only insoles. So I regret to say I don't have the necessary background there to make all those claims. But we see in the whole branch of orthotics in general we see a lot of innovations happening based on various. Once again, the biggest is still in insoles.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and how about just generally more trends? I mean, do you have any idea where what industries are growing the fastest for you, for example?
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure. So this year, the collaboration with Zellefeld has, of course, triggered a lot of exposure sneakers, shoes, et cetera. So there is lots of innovation going on there, in combination, of course, with what we already said, with post-processing, implicit modeling and texturing, et cetera. So this is triggering the shoe industry. Well, some other fields, like I mentioned, perhaps running, so, let's say, specific orthotics or even midsoles, etc. We see some activities there as well.
Speaker 1:So I think one of the things that's interesting and you could touch on it a little bit and one of the reasons why FDM just has, to me it's been a little bit slow on the uptake, for especially on the prosthetic side or even on the shoe side of things. But with the advent of, say, the anthropology or people that are super proficient in rhino grasshopper workflow, is this idea of textures and being able to hide lines, seams, and also the ability to go non-planar, and I think that's why a lot of this, and then you obviously have bamboo and some of the other ones that have come into play, but so now you start being able to create these very eye-catching, layerless-looking products for the masses and I think this is a massive deal moving forward and I think it's neat. It's definitely harder for the designer to get all that stuff right, but, man, as we keep on going, FDM is really a cost-effective way, especially if the materials are right to move forward.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly Adding to that, Brent, what also has contributed to this growth is, I mean, we saw the first momentum, I mean this market catching up, taking up speed. When was that? Like two years ago? So we got a lot of feedback from the market Okay, we need to improve here, can you do that? Get this sorted out, et cetera.
Speaker 3:So one of the big investments we did last year and also this year is to take care of all the necessary compliances. For example, if some people require skin contact, can it be done Right, we assume so, but let's prove it. So we spent a reasonable amount of cash, let's say, assigning certain research to companies like UL, intertech and, in Germany, pfi, who are established names in assessing the research for skin contacts. I believe there's an ISO standard 10993 which addresses all those questions. I think there are like 10 or 15 amendments there, so we took care of most of those. To test the material Is the material fit for orthotics? Can you use it directly on skin? Any objections? So the whole homework package was researched and recently I think it was like two or three months back we gave out this declaration of compliance that we have passed all those tests. So I think this also contributes, let's say not only on the hardware and software side, so also on the material side. You want to have all the critical success factors in place to fully go out in this value stream.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a very interesting thing. And if you're looking at, well, have you guys looked at other technologies or is FDM only FDM for you guys? Because it would have been tempting for you to make something else right yeah, it is.
Speaker 3:So I just mentioned the early ultimaker days. We were like on kickstarter every day, scouting for new types of machines. So we got one of the early sla machines, only to find out that that the chemistry in resins and photo initiators was not very skin friendly. So we sold that machine again. And I think for some years ago and we're just discussing SLS with Brent we had one of the first. What was that Sintratec machine playing around with powder Eastman was also working on that with different polyesters. At one point we decided to abandon that as well, because we were making tests in a factory and had powder flying around here interfering with a filament manufacturing process. So that was a big no-go for us. So we said, okay, let's stick to our trade, let's, let's stick to our trade. So yes, we we did. We did play around a little bit with different, with different techniques, different polymers, but ultimately we decided to stick to fn well, congratulations on that.
Speaker 1:I wish you would have told me that a while ago.
Speaker 2:Powder flying everywhere you like your vacuum cleaner. Do you have a nice vacuum cleaner? I get you one for christmas. I get a really nice vacuum cleaner for christmas. That's the the one thing that every sls guy wants a really amazing swedish vacuum cleaner well brand, I have to give it to you.
Speaker 3:I was reading your linkedin post. You were like married like 20 plus years to your wife I don't recall the exact number, but, uh, you mentioned that besides your wife rolling with your with her eyes if you're thinking or talking about this new 3d printer, hey, man, I know that feeling exactly. So I saw you're writing about an sls machine, okay, and I thought she's in for a surprise.
Speaker 2:And we're seeing a lot of attention right now from people trying to really do print farms for manufacturing. Part of that is orthotics, right, but it also goes much broader than that, where people are really doing bigger manufacturing installations with hundreds of printers. Do you see a lot of traction there as well, from your point of view?
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely. Of course, you already mentioned it when bamboo entered the market. I mean SMEs small medium enterprises can start a business with relatively low investment and the amortization time in this space using that kind of hardware is relatively fast. So it's easy to just purchase a couple of printers and get going. If you're knowledgeable in 3D and you know how to design your product, it's fairly easy to start manufacturing. So the answer is yes, we're seeing a lot of activity in space. It's not just only people with one or two printers, so it's easy to find companies right now who already are running somewhere between 10 to 20 plus printers. So if we consider this a print farm, I would say yes.
Speaker 1:So on the prosthetic side of things, you know we talk a lot about the flexibles that have done very well, like the VarioShore and things of that nature, and now with some of the high flow stuff too, you're starting to not have to worry as much about layer adhesion, specifically in the Z, because you've got so much thermal mass. I mean, what are your thoughts on materials and such that will end up with a very strong final product for prosthesis? I mean, I know that there are some out there and I still think that, just because of the history of FDM, it's going to be hard to shake that fear of Z layer adhesion. But what are we really up against? From your engineering background and what you know about some of the prosthetic sockets and the forces, what are we up against and where is there opportunity in FDM? And where is there? You know it makes it a little bit more difficult.
Speaker 3:Okay, that's a tough one. So, focusing on our own material portfolio so we run PLA, which is a polyester, we run copolyesters from Eastman, we have some nylons, we have a lot of composites, tpu, et cetera. There are plenty of opportunities that have not been explored. So, multi-material if you can combine materials crisscross in this material family in one print, you can make off-the-scale properties right. So combining those real-time, that's an opportunity. We also are looking into various copolars. For example, in PLA you can easily tweak melting temperatures, impact, toughness, et cetera. Even your TG can be modified to function in a certain range.
Speaker 3:So you can use those to make, for example this is kind of a wild thought you can produce B-component fibers, which is typically, if you look at the cross-section, this is a core shell material. Imagine you use a very high-tech PLA on your shell and you use a soft core, which might be a TPU or a soft PLA. You can achieve crazy layer adhesion and the product would be more or less toughened because of the, let's say, the soft inner core. So if you combine those properties in let's call it, core shell or shell core structures, they can give rise to complete new functionalities and you can also regard that as a multi-material, let's say combination. This is standard practice in textiles, by the way, so we believe this might also have a bright future in FDM 3D printing. It's a little bit more difficult to produce, but for the user it will not make any difference, just add a lot of more performance. So this allows also the way to combine, let's say, non-compatible materials in one print.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like it's really not a material issue. It kind of comes down to what you're talking about with the manipulation of the G-code, some mechanical stuff Like how do you actually get the material properties from the machine that you want. So it becomes more of a hardware solution. I mean, obviously there's materials, but it is a hardware solution along with some software.
Speaker 3:Well, not quite, brent. It's always well my perspective, to put it in my perspective, I'm most of the time looking at those challenges from a material point of view, right? So what can we do to tweak the physical appearance of a filament? I can. Can we add a thin shell that that allows more performance, that allows, let's say, layer adhesion? So this, this is a possibility from the material perspective. If I look at from a hardware perspective, I would say, hey guys, let's go for a heated chamber that goes up to, I don't know, 80 to 120 to allow nylon to get the best possible bond. Of course that's a possibility. And also, g-code wise, there are still a lot of things you can tweak. G-code wise, there are still a lot of things you you can tweak.
Speaker 3:So if, if I look at this, at this trinity, somewhere is a a sweet spot that is just going to work, perfect. I mentioned it before. We're not even scratching the surface of fdm, of what's going to be possible. It's just a matter of adding the, the calculation capacity in the 3D printer. So what kind of processor is in there? What kind of data can the printer work with? So that's a continuous evolution. I think Moore's law is actually still happening in 3D printing. Every year we see enormous, let's say, advancements in all those combinations. So hardware, material and software. That combination is going to get us the performance we ultimately are longing for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that perspective. That's great and it's so good to I mean. So I think that's one of the things that and I'd love for you to speak on this too how important it is to have I mean, we would call it interdisciplinary, but have to sometimes. Orthotics and prosthetics is our life. But if you were to come to, say, an orthotic and prosthetic show and you look around and you say, wow, I mean there's some very cool things that are happening, but wow, you guys are kind of doing it the hard way as well. And so, having that data going back and forth with the human capital, human subject matter, experts, material, and then the side of stuff that we're doing, whether you know the interaction with the body, or if you're talking to somebody like the bike parts, like those people, that are specialties, it really is how do we all communicate, come together and throw the best things on the table that we think may have a good chance at going?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's also a tough question for me. During daily life, I'm mostly involved right now with new materials, sustainable material innovation, so I'm working in the PHA space, so part of my time I engage with people from Podoprinter in the insole space, so part of that is also visiting trade shows. I've been at the O be in orthotics to catch up with the industry right. So one of the things I learned there that what I consider to be a very conservative market, the German orthotic shoe market is accelerating dramatically. Being old-fashioned artisan shoemaker who really had the trade in their hands, they are very focused in digitalizing and catching up, let's say, 3d printing production methods for various new products. So, talking to those generations that are actually willing to make the transition, that are intrinsically motivated to learn, let's say, digital manufacturing of their products, this is what truly inspires us.
Speaker 3:Okay, what do you guys want to achieve? Because one thing we've learned there each orthotic shoemaker or prosthetist has his own signature product, their own way of working, and I think this is key to understanding what a certain individual wants to achieve or what vision they want to materialize. This is actually what drives us to actually make the material that can all make that happen. So it's not a general case. It's not a general case. Each customer, each individual, has its own needs to be successful in this industry. That's what I've learned so far.
Speaker 1:I think so. Just and this is a super loaded question but it's more you could answer or not answer I guess. Answer I guess. But like when you take a look, say, around the ot world, and you mention, hey, it's your signature, you know way or what have you and that is important. But you know, we always go back to some of the stuff like what we were talking about earlier, where you've got anthropology and some of the ai stuff coming down the pike and that sort of thing. Would you say that, while the signature aspect, is that truly necessary to move forward, or can that be put into the cog of data and experience to make everything move forward? Not necessarily like a standard, but in that sort of sense, does that signature matter as much as what we think it is? As far as from a clinical standpoint?
Speaker 3:Well, we're based in Holland. I think we have like 1,200 podiatrists here, as far as I have been told. Most of them, of course, can work with certain templates for sure, and some of them have their own ideas and background or even own specialisms. Okay, I specialize in this kind of treatment or that kind of disease, and that's all fair. So, holistically, I would say, if you look at some other industries like dental or something like hearing aids, especially hearing aids this whole industry has now converted to digital manufacturing. So this is going to happen also for orthotics. I mean, it's eat or be eaten. Some of the players are moving along more, let's say, faster and efficiently than, let's say, perhaps, smaller offices. So I think, ok, I'd have to be careful what I say here, but some of the signature processes ultimately might be filtered out because of new standards entering this market space. It's evolution. I like it.
Speaker 1:It's evolution. I like it, I mean. So I think in all that and I would say like, just from my experience in the digital side of things, it's been very humbling, especially when you take a look at Joris and I, just some really interesting connecting of scan inputs versus modification, versus patient outputs, and what they're finding is that their model actually does pretty well. But then they're also finding that it's important to have a specialist involved, a prosthetist orthotist, have a specialist involved, a prosthetist orthotist, and so I think that there is a combo or a trifecta where you have the patient, you have a software that's helping the clinician, and then the clinician has eyes on the patient and they have a good outcome. So I like to your point hey, we might be filtering out some of that stuff because we're evolving and the data is getting so loud that we can't not use it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and adding to that, I mean, over the course of the last couple of years, I've heard some and seen some wild ideas and one podiatrist came to us. Yeah, I'm a little bit scared. I mean, the iPhone is getting so good at making pictures, also detailed topology, of the bottom of my foot. Ultimately, if a podiatrist sees that picture, they can already, let's say, make a detailed analysis where to go or what to resolve. So if AI can do that automatically, I mean, wow, okay, then will this trade become obsolete? I don't know.
Speaker 3:There was another company reaching out to us at one point, which is a brand I cannot not tell on this podcast, but it was a big shoe retailer, like with a thousand stores throughout Europe, and the guy said, hey, I want to put every, let's say, potential customer on a scanner.
Speaker 3:I want to have data and with this data I don't know I can give her a rebate or a discount on a shoe, as long as we can use the data to follow up. So ultimately it's going to be about data. How many, let's say, data can we process and make an analysis or say, hey, you might benefit from this insole or that kind of shoe, or completely go custom, and that's an opportunity that Zellefeld is leading us, the way they already can customize a certain model according to the geometry of the picture that you send them. Just, let's say, they allow you to take a picture on the upper side of your foot just by iPhone and they can, let's say, use that data to fully customize your shoe. So that's going to be a possibility that might change the whole industry again. So complexity, again, ai using customer data, fully customization.
Speaker 2:That could be really really exciting. A lot of consequences as well. Hey, ruud, thank you so much for your time today. It was really wonderful talking to you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, guys, thank you for having me once again. I think we can chat for a couple hours more, but Anyway, I hope to catch you guys again soon and keep up the great work, guys.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you, thank you and, yeah, thank you for being here, as always. Again, brent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this was great talking shop and we ran the gamut right A little bit of history, a little bit into the weeds, and so this was great. So thank you, Ruud, for sharing your experience and journey. I know our listeners will get a lot from it.
Speaker 2:Thank you guys. I appreciate it, and thank you for listening to another episode of the Orthotics and Prosthetics podcast. Have a great day.
Speaker 1:And that's another wrap of the Prosthetics and Orthotics podcast. A special thanks to Rude for sharing his insight and experience and a special thanks to Structure. Go check them out at structureio. Check out their Structure Sensor 3. And until next time, we'll see you on the next episode. You.
